Liturgical HON

[gwyn]

alan29 said

hey can always just be said, though it always sounds strange when a celebrant decides to declaim a communion antiphon out of the blue with no reference to anything. It always sounds like a random line from scripture that has suddenly popped into his head and "must out."

Curious practice altogether. We get people in the assembly who say "Communion antiphon . . ." before reciting it, as if it could be anything else at that point in the Mass.

Maybe they think that if they don't say "Communion antiphon" first, the rest of the assembly will think it's the Gettysberg Address or something else equaly unlikely.

Bizarre.

[oopsorganist]

Nope

The parish council won't allow anything like that.

[docmattc]

If we're talking about a limited, common core repertoire, how do we square this with using the graduale- ie having a different text, almost inevitably with a different tune every week? Even if we agreed a nationwide setting, this would give a common repertoire, but it would expand it rather than limit it. The chances of agreeing such a setting are negligible. Presbyter observes that even a deanery wide agreement is 'aspirational'.

To teach a new tune each week, no matter how simple it might be, presupposes a cantor, and I would guess that many churches don't have such luxuries. To keep a common tune it would have to be chanted with a reciting note, and I'm not sure this would manage to fulfil all (or any) of the functions of the gathering music or the communion music.

At the risk of sounding like Mr Bear, are we rehearsing arguments found here? If these core repertoire arguments are new, maybe the core repertoire thread is the place to be having the discussion.

Oops, don't compare your resources with the marketing movie for Psallite. Its marketing, bound to be showing a shiny top of the range model. Actually most of the choir spend time singing 'oo' like a parliament of surprised owls. And it sounds like your parish council need some training in liturgy- you have my sympathy!

[gwyn]

And it sounds like your parish council need some training in liturgy- you have my sympathy!

Indeed. Too much power with perhaps too little knowledge or understanding. This has been the curse of Parochial Church Councils in the C of E for many a year.

R.C. Parish Advisory Councils are, I believe, intended to be exactly what it says on the tin - advisory.

[Reginald]

Alan - it is, kind of, the propers from the Mass as we usually use them - it can be expanded so that the antiphon functions as a chorus, verses from the Psalms are interspersed. The full version, unsimplified and with psalm verses is here http://www.musicasacra.com/communio/.

As to whether the repertoire increases massively, I don't know. If you were using the Graduale Romanum you're looking at a couple of hundred texts - many of which would be too challenging for most congregations at the moment. What I can't say is whether the Graduale Simplex does what it says on the tin. I believe that the repertoire is reduced and the antiphons simplified. I'm not sure if that isn't what's used at Westminster from time to time - and that being the case it's easy to get into and less distracting than trying to follow multiple verses of hymns.

I don't suppose there's any reason that they (the propers) could not be sung to simple psalm tones rather than to the Gregorian melodies, and my experience in school is that things set to simple tones usually work better than new hymns...

Final point - Vat II required that more sacred scripture be used in the Mass (and yes I'm paraphrasing) seems ironic that we knock the extraordinary form of the Roman Rite for having fewer readings from scripture, but then ditch the possibility of using scripture as Introit, Offertorium and Communio in favour of Graham Kendrick or his Victorian equivalents. All that said, I don't know enough about chant to be able to do anything much about it at the moment - but after "Chant and Pray", who knows?

[alan29]

Reginald I agree with you. (Hang on, I must have a lie down in a darkened room!)
My memory of the liturgical changes around the Entrance, "Offertory" and Communion chants is that the antiphons in the missal would once again become just that - antiphons that were a refrain for all to sing between chanted psalm verses. It is greatly to be regretted that it never really took off. There are riches in the psalms that are barely touched on in our worship.
I guess it proved to be impractical in the vast majority of parishes where there just isn't the musical expertise to have in effect 4 responsorial psalms a week. Or perhaps to make it practicable, the musical value of the settings would have to be near zero and run the risk of tedium. You may remember from other threads that I really believe that only the best (in terms of musical quality AND execution) is worthy of the liturgy. You usually can't have both, so I generally settle for a 3 chord jobbie done superbly.
Alan

[oopsorganist]

Only the best? Oh dear.

What about Inclusion and Participation? As Gospel values?

(Psallite....Yes, I know that advert was a hype, Doc., but Americans are great at ads so what market are they aiming at, that is the sad thing)

That was a good bit Alan, about the end of the world.......

I am going to ask the most stupid question ever, are you ready? What does Liturgy mean? Actually, really mean. I keep using the word but I don't know what it means. Because I was thinking, that if our parish council (who refuse to buy Laudate too, as it happens) need Liturgical training does that mean they need a good slapping with the Bible or with one of them Latin books you keep mentioning. They say they will still be here when Father is gone and therefore they keep control of the music. "It's our parish". Therefore everyone else is excluded and no one participates. But we keep knocking on.

Anyway, our problem has been solved. Father has (sh, he says) got a photocopy of a Mass he likes that does not paraphrase and we are going to work on that. I will have to find it to buy it as he has missed the first note off some of the bars. It is called The Mass of Cille Chorille (or something like that) , which I think means The Mass of Silly Choirs. I hope so anyway. Job done. That Mass , and only hymns people know off by heart.... All that I Am and Amazing Grace, so we don't need hymn books or bits of paper anymore.

[musicus]

Only the best? Oh dear.

I would take that to mean 'the best of which we are capable'. I like to think that God deserves nothing less, but asks nothing more. (Like the widow's mite.)

Anyway, our problem has been solved. Father has (sh, he says) got a photocopy of a Mass he likes that does not paraphrase and we are going to work on that. I will have to find it to buy it as he has missed the first note off some of the bars.

Speaking as an author who derives a small part of his income from those good people who buy his books instead of stealing or photocopying them, I can think of better reasons why your parish should buy it.

It is called The Mass of Cille Chorille

It's Cille Choirille and it's a place in Scotland. I don't know the Mass setting though.

Job done. That Mass , and only hymns people know off by heart.... All that I Am and Amazing Grace, so we don't need hymn books or bits of paper anymore.

That is a wry joke, or bitter irony, isn't it? Please say that it is.

[docmattc]

I am going to ask the most stupid question ever, are you ready? What does Liturgy mean? Actually, really mean. I keep using the word but I don't know what it means.

There is no such thing as a stupid question, only a stupid answer- so here goes

From the Greek leitourgia meaning a public duty, or 'work of the people' Now 'liturgy' means any public act of worship for which there is a prescribed format. (either laid down from on high or made up by me ten minutes ago). The Liturgy usually refers to Mass.

I don't usually recommend the often somewhat outdated Catholic Encylopedia (last updated 1913??), but its article seems to be reasonable, unless you're really keen or can't sleep, I wouldn't bother scrolling down more than a page or so.

You could give your parish council a good slap with both the bible and VCII, it would make you feel better, but probably acheive nothing. Training only works if the recipient is open to being trained.
It puzzles (and frustrates) me why folk are so opposed to anything different in church. Do these people never try a new recipe, never watch a new TV programme, never go somewhere different on holiday... . I have a similar, if less severe problem, and now don't ever suggest doing things differently before doing them. I've decided its better to seek absolution than permission!
Contrary to popular opinion, you are entitled to a say in your parish even if you aren't over 70, and your parents and grandparents didn't also live in the parish.
It is their parish but its also yours, and the children's, and the PP's. This bizarre need to pickle it will mean that their legacy will be an empty building. Keep working at it by stealth. Nil illegitimus carborundum - I suspect that's not proper Latin, but google it!


1am. adeo pro an mane nox noctis

[alan29]

Musicus, thanks for clarifying my meaning - you got it exactly right.

"It puzzles (and frustrates) me why folk are so opposed to anything different in church. Do these people never try a new recipe, never watch a new TV programme, never go somewhere different on holiday"
I BET they read the Daily Mail, too!!
Do people volunteer for Parish Councils purely to serve? Discuss.


Alan

[oopsorganist]

Must not go off topic must not go off topic. Must not....zzzzz

So Alan I have contacted someone about this Mass setting for permission and of course would purchase what I can...... but like most I am a volunteer and don't get anything from my services except the many griefs and the odd good response......and sometimes a terrible fit of the giggles in quite the wrong places. And backache from carrying around 6 full music and or melody, editions of hymns, CFE, HON, Laudate. And I had to buy them all. And the parish copies too, for some of them.

Thanks Doc. That was helpful. THE Liturgy is THE Mass and without that there is NO need for any kind of music whatsoever...... what awaits us when we get to that place they threaten us with, when there are no priests we just don't know........that'll need another kind of blooming hymn book for another kind of Liturgy, maybe the one Doc just made up 10 minutes ago. Something around, bread and wine, made a few weeks ago and left around up there on the altar for us to share, it doesn't scan well.

Parish Councils. Deleted something here. .......
They did get training a few years ago. Someone came and told them that it was OK to move with the Spirit and sing out anything when they felt like it, and dancing was OK too. They only took the singing bit on board. Hence on a visit from the Bishop, someone launched into Amazing Grace during Communion and the Bishop's aide turned to the organ loft and gave me a very withering and disapproving look. I don't know if he thought I had forgotten to do the introduction or if he didn't like the spontaneity of it all. And the whole church sang, well, with great enthusiasm. I should write a play.

What about anyone out there with more resources changing hymn books. Is there a place where old ones could be recycled to poorer parishes? I have already asked this question around the Diocese last year when some parishes were merged. What happened to the hymn books I wonder?

(Would it be wrong to attend Mass in another parish and accidentally come home with one, or two, of their hymn books?). Is that worse that illegal word sheets? It might in the end be quicker than campaigning for a new one.

Wild thought. In the vestry there are piles and piles of old music. Proper stuff. Probably in Latin. And parts. Might use that. Or the old old hymn books around the old old organ. Ones that date from 1895. I think people might go for that. And maybe they are copyright free now. Anyone for a quick blast of Beautiful angel from heaven so mild, tenderly guide me for I am thy child, or even, ..........Angels of Jesus Angels of light, singing to welcome the pilgrims of the night (that was my mum's favourite.......... altogether after 7 and a half
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1/2.............

[nazard]

In my experience there are only two reasons why people volunteer for parish councils:

1) To get things changed.

2) To get things changed back.

Every parish I know that has one of these wretched committees, when they were set up most parishioners couldn't be bothered with them. A few extremists volunteered and introduced their ideas, the upset then volunteered and ever since the committee has been locked in vitriolic argument. Please pray that the second coming does not happen in one of our parish meetings, we would probably not notice who was standing in our midst.

[oopsorganist]

So

I thought there were a range of constitutions for parish councils which can vary the power and influence of a Parish Council from advisory to total financial control.... .

I think that our financial decisions are controlled by our Parish Council, ( two people). I believe our parish is held in stasis by this parish council and historical hostilities. .... Father appeals for other people to be on the parish council, but it isn't that kind of area where people have much time from the grind. But instead, kind people do what they can and do various true service, everyone tries to gloss over the problems. So we can function. There is also a rift with the school. Over finances too. Most of the people at church are really nice and just get on and do what they see needs doing. I'll have to go round the parish council some way or other.

It is a very generous parish when appeals are made. Really generous. For a poor area.

Lots of babies to dip too, which means loads of people who will need a hymn book and who haven't been to church for a while, so we should get it right for them shouldn't we? Then there are people who are new to the country and we have only just begun to notice how the composition of the parish is changing and it might be that this is the right time to be singing "Let us break bread together on our knees". (Images of people hitting their knees with French sticks).

Now Advent is coming and we will have to sing O Come O Come Emmanuel instead of that nice Farrell thing in Laudate Advent section. Meanwhile I don't know week on week what to do..... neither hymn book is enough for the congregation, and sheets are not legal.

But I really don't think anything from the Graduale whatsits would be very much use to us just at the moment.

[alan29]

I think in the end someone in your parish has to make a decision about books, copyright, the morality of photocopying etc. If they will not spend on books, then the only option is to have a diet of public-domain hymns, and mass settings that can be learned by heart. There IS always one other option, something to do with shaking the dust......
Alan

[Reginald]

Oops - shame that the Graduale Whotsits don't float your boat - there's a whole lot of free stuff out there for traditionalists! Free downloads of the Ordinary of the Mass, free use of whatever's in Jubilate Deo. I'm even told that Solesmes choose not to assert their copyright in any way shape or form, but please don't quote me in a court of law, just read it somewhere.

As for Alan's advice - Took the plunge a few months ago, circumstances beyond my control and all that. It may not be good for the environment but 20 minutes in the car has seen a marked improvement in my spiritual life! Don't get me wrong, I still haven't arrived at a Mass with bells, smells, children's liturgy, plainchant, Walker, Inwood, the odd bit of Victoriana - but it's better than it was.