Liturgical HON

[presbyter]

Should we not just wait until this has been sorted out?

Liturgiam authenticam 108


108. Sung texts and liturgical hymns have a particular importance and efficacy. Especially on Sunday, the "Day of the Lord", the singing of the faithful gathered for the celebration of Holy Mass, no less than the prayers, the readings and the homily, express in an authentic way the message of the Liturgy while fostering a sense of common faith and communion in charity.[78] If they are used widely by the faithful, they should remain relatively fixed so that confusion among the people may be avoided. Within five years from the publication of this Instruction, the Conferences of Bishops, necessarily in collaboration with the national and diocesan Commissions and with other experts, shall provide for the publication of a directory or repertory of texts intended for liturgical singing. This document shall be transmitted for the necessary recognitio to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments.

[oopsorganist]

"Shall we not just wait until this is sorted out?" (Presbyter). Was that a quote or is it a serious question? I suppose, the answer would be yes, wait until it is sorted out. Such a course of action would mean we could hang on indefinitely singing "All that I am" ........ which I have realized everyone likes so much at our church because it is all below the A above middle C so it is easy to sing out. It takes a year at least to bring anything new into the repertoire at our church and that is only with the greatest of stealth and cunning and cajoling, by which time they have forgotten that they knew another probably very standard hymn, for example, "Bring all ye dear bought nations sing".

What about an SSG leaflet thing for parishes like ours? A kind of "Sing Something Simple" emergency leaflet with a limited selection. Only Liturgical stuff what follows the words on the Mass sheet and 30 essential hymns. Then others could sort out the Calamus stuff. (Most would presumably be very old arrangements of trad hymns..........? Or not as the case may be.)

My husband was watching people struggle with sets of words, Mass sheets and hymnals the other week and he said that no one was singing because they could not work out which thing was on what bit of paper. The Holy Holy was the words in the Mass sheet and if they don't know 664 off by heart ( Lamb of God) by now after singing it every Sunday forever then heaven help us.......which leaves the Gloria. I wonder how long it would take to teach and learn the Gregory Murray one? Probably from now to the end of time. Hours of fun.

We may get Laudate but only by stealth because it has been opposed by the Parish Council. Maybe they like juggling pieces of paper and two hymn books. Who knows? Perhaps I'll freak out and make people share one between two. And just where do hymn books go? That is the question, because we used to have at least 100 HON?

[presbyter]

"Shall we not just wait until this is sorted out?" (Presbyter). Was that a quote or is it a serious question?

It's a serious question.

[oopsorganist]

Oh no

it is irresistible.

2007 years not long enough then? And can we sing anything we like while we are waiting? Our PP said this three or four years ago, something like, well, we'll wait and see what the Diocesan Personage in such matters says because it is all changing and we will get advice. So no worries about the hymn books. Meanwhile more hymn books have gone and more bods have wandered in and so what to sing from?

I now have just had this awful idea that the hymn books have gone home so that people can sing in the bath. I imagine this, it is not good. I blame you Presbyter. I suppose they are practicing.

I wish I knew what they were singing, I would certainly choose that for next Sunday. Off thread I know.

[docmattc]

Within five years from the publication of this Instruction, the Conferences of Bishops, necessarily in collaboration with the national and diocesan Commissions and with other experts, shall provide for the publication of a directory or repertory of texts intended for liturgical singing.

As within 5 years meant by March 28th 2006, which will appear sooner, the directory, or Christ in glory? Is this repertory going to be a prescriptive list of what we may (must?) or may not sing, or a set of model examples? Will it result in a new hymn book, which must be purchased and used by all parishes, with no music allowed outside of its covers, and the same repertoire in every church? I doubt this very much, for it would place too much of a constraint on both the great cathedrals and tiny village churches. It would also prevent any new compositions from being used until they had been added to the directory and regonitio obtained, which I suspect would take forever.

We have discussed the musical implications of Liturgiam Authenticam elsewhere, but I would doubt that any resulting document, if one ever materialises, will make any of our hymn books obsolete, even if anyone actually pays any attention to it. I'm not even sure if will sort anything out.


Oops, if you have the opportunity to move out of the mid 1980s and replace HON, I would grasp the nettle and do so. The concensus here however seems to be that LitHON isn't the way forward.

[presbyter]

If one suggests that Psalm 99 (100) might be suitable for a gathering procession, does Rome then have to approve each of.........

I do wonder if the Sacred Congregation realises the scale of the task it is taking on. But the request does seem to be for a limited core repertoire.

I am informed that the US Bishops have submitted their list - but I have no idea what the content is. Does anybody?

[oopsorganist]

I only asked which hymn book to go for!

Does a parish have to go through a process whereby such hymns as "Let us break bread together on our knees" are introduced then abandoned for something better as part of the development process.....?...... if so, we haven't managed to get that going yet. We're a bit behind you see.

But we have begun to lose 664. Even though it is Father's favourite. They never did get to hold some bars for four beats, even after all these years. Even though I have been in the habit of banging the base note four times to try to keep it in time, in certain places.

I would be glad if there was a standard repertoire. There is nothing quite to worrying as trying to get it right and then finding everyone else around knows different hymns/Mass settings which they consider traditional and appropriate. The next door parish do Gregory Murray New People's Mass as standard but if I played that in our parish I would get silence. It's not in HON anyway. And they are only a mile or so away.

[docmattc]

Does a parish have to go through a process whereby such hymns as "Let us break bread together on our knees" are introduced then abandoned for something better as part of the development process.....?

I think that's exactly the process. We are only 40-odd years from the council and still very much finding our way musically. Its a process which works at different rates in different places. Old hymns never die, their numbers just don't come up very often! At least I try and drop stuff by stealth. I have an ambition that our current primary school children will grow up having never encountered 'Colours of Day'. If they don't ask for that (and the like) at their weddings I will be happy.

I would be glad if there was a standard repertoire. There is nothing quite to worrying as trying to get it right and then finding everyone else around knows different hymns/Mass settings which they consider traditional and appropriate. The next door parish do Gregory Murray New People's Mass as standard but if I played that in our parish I would get silence. It's not in HON anyway. And they are only a mile or so away.

If neighbouring parishes have a different repertoire, it doesn't mean they're right and you're wrong. Just different. Different parishes are very different even if only a mile apart. Its about knowing your congregation.
That said, it would be perhaps be a useful excercise to communicate around a deanery and decide that there was going to be at least one set of acclamations in common.

[presbyter]

If neighbouring parishes have a different repertoire, it doesn't mean they're right and you're wrong. Just different.

Don't you think there should be some common, core repertoire? ..... and getting a Deanery to work together is .... errrr ..... an aspirational sentiment! (I go to deanery meetings - I know!)

[Reginald]

As we traipse around the country over the summer visiting various relatives, and invariably find that the organist is on holiday, or that the choir is touring the great churches of the Costa del Sol, I often think about the need for a core repertoire that doesn't need accompanying. Found a little book from the early 70s with 'Jubilate Deo' on the cover which was trying - unsuccessfully - to achieve the same thing.

And if I were being even more trad (which you all know would be out of character) would it be the end of the world if we either used the Graduale Romanum, or the Graduale Simplex or better yet (in terms of where we are now), vernacular translations of the same. Now who sets the tune for such translations wouldn't bother me at all, but at least then we'd be spared some of the more treacly Helen Steiner-Rice-type hymns - and we'd break free from the idea that every 'Offertory' must include the words bread and wine and that every 'Communion' must have the word 'body' in it. We might also break free from the idea that we have to 'do something to the Mass' so that people can more readily spot 'the theme' - and maybe make more space for the Mass to do something to us.

Sorry if that sounds grumpy, but the little people were awake a lot last night - and writing this has put off the moment when I actually have to do some work!!!!

[presbyter]

........ would it be the end of the world if we either used the Graduale Romanum, or the Graduale Simplex or better yet (in terms of where we are now), vernacular translations of the same. Now who sets the tune for such translations wouldn't bother me at all

Sounds as if you have not yet encountered Psallite

[gwyn]

Hmmm. Just googles Psalilte.

Read the bumph
http://www.litpress.org/psallite/psallite.html

Watch the Apple QuickTime video clip
http://www.litpress.org/psallite/Psallite.mov

All seems quite accessable.

Any users on this Forum?

[docmattc]

Hmmm. Just googles Psalilte.

All seems quite accessable.

Any users on this Forum?

I dip into it now and again. Its a very useful resource. Which reminds me- I haven't bought year A yet, and its almost upon us.

[oopsorganist]

lol

I watched it in silence. Technical problems.

A lot of white people with toothache, a huge choir, a leader, accompanying pianist............

What planet are they on?

Makes me feel depressed and defeated. That is putting it nicely.

[alan29]

....... would it be the end of the world if we either used the Graduale Romanum, or the Graduale Simplex or better yet (in terms of where we are now), vernacular translations of the same. Now who sets the tune for such translations wouldn't bother me at all
____________________________________________________________

Aren't these just the propers from the Missal?

They can always just be said, though it always sounds strange when a celebrant decides to declaim a communion antiphon out of the blue with no reference to anything. It always sounds like a random line from scripture that has suddenly popped into his head and "must out."

Alan