Hymn choices
Moderators: Dom Perignon, Casimir
Hey, I've finished for Sunday, after playing for the 5.30 pm Sunday mass, I whink two people were singing for my final rousing hymn, 'To be a pilgrim (somehow I found a connection between J the B and 'Follow me').
My daughter came and nudged me during the pre service practise to tell me it had been on Dr Who 2 weeks before.....
Obviously only the 2 singers were also Dr Who fans.
Actually, I did want to ask a more serious question...
When I try out registration earlier in the week, in an empty church, I'm happy with using diapason/principal and other noisy stops...
Then at the service, I chicken out and use flutes because as the gathering assemble, the sound is LOUD.
I'm expecting extra bodies to damp the sound, but perhaps its the live mikes providing extra feedback?
My daughter came and nudged me during the pre service practise to tell me it had been on Dr Who 2 weeks before.....
Obviously only the 2 singers were also Dr Who fans.
Actually, I did want to ask a more serious question...
When I try out registration earlier in the week, in an empty church, I'm happy with using diapason/principal and other noisy stops...
Then at the service, I chicken out and use flutes because as the gathering assemble, the sound is LOUD.
I'm expecting extra bodies to damp the sound, but perhaps its the live mikes providing extra feedback?
Welcome to the forum, JW. I agree with what you say about 'creative tension'. The debate will always be about to what extent each 'side' should prevail. For example, several non-Catholic denominations require that all hymns be taken from the official denomination hymn book (e.g. the Salvation Army). Surprisingly, for such a 'top down' organisation as our own, we haven't quite got to that point yet. (Though, of course, in former pre-hymn book times, only the official music books were permitted.)
It occurs to me that the proper arbiter and manager of this tension is and should remain the local bishop. If we are in harmony with him we are ordodox; if not, we aren't. Which is why I am with those who hope and pray that Rome does not go over the heads of local ordinaries and decree that the Tridentine Rite may be celebrated without reference to the local bishop. (Or the Ambrosian Rite, or the Church of England's Communion Service, or whatever - my point is about the authority of the bishop.)
Meanwhile, I look forward to more posts from you.
It occurs to me that the proper arbiter and manager of this tension is and should remain the local bishop. If we are in harmony with him we are ordodox; if not, we aren't. Which is why I am with those who hope and pray that Rome does not go over the heads of local ordinaries and decree that the Tridentine Rite may be celebrated without reference to the local bishop. (Or the Ambrosian Rite, or the Church of England's Communion Service, or whatever - my point is about the authority of the bishop.)
Meanwhile, I look forward to more posts from you.
musicus - moderator, Liturgy Matters
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Our top-down organisation does require us to have an authorised hymn book...we just haven't got round to it yet, but then thirty-odd years is probably not too long to wait - these things take time!
On the subject of the local ordinary, his own orthodoxy comes from being in communion with the Bishop of Rome. I have no issues about the freeing up of the restrictions on the former Roman Rite. I'm convinced that the Holy Spirit has played a blinder by giving us Benedict XVI - and I think his 'purpose' is to renew the Liturgy. Immediately after his election I spoke to one of the Music and Liturgy editors, in quite pessimistic terms about the one-time Cardinal Ratzinger. He advised me to stop reading what people wrote about him and instead to read the man himself. It was brilliant advice. You might describe me as a convert to the Panzer-Kardinal
What's clear from his writings is that he has no desire to return to the days of the Low Mass as it was widely celebrated prior to Vat II. Rather, he like Jungmann, Bouyer and many other members of the Consilium thinks that the Mass we now have is not what was envisaged by the liturgical reforms of Vat II. To take only one example. His main thrust seems to be to re-centre the Mass on Christ and not the priest - and to avoid the loss of our liturgical heritage. Look at the pictures of him celebrating Mass in Brazil and in Assisi. In each case he is dwarfed by an image of Christ or a crucifix - he's demonstrating by example that the Mass is not about him as celebrant/presider/pope, but about Christ.
I'm not personally a proponent of the restoration of the 'Classical' Rite, but if a consequence of that restoration is that my regular Mass is celebrated with greater dignity, with more awareness of its sacrificial nature and less emphasis on the priest as host and compere I would be happy. Likewise, I'd be delighted if those who are attached to the former Rite exploited some of the options open to them under the liturgical law in force in 1962 (readings in the vernacular, Canon of the Mass audible enough that it could be followed, responses said/sung by the congregation).
There's an assumption on the part of some of my friends and colleagues that there was nothing good before Vat II, and that can't be true. If returning the baby to its bath water means that Pope Benedict has to fasten my bishop's girdle and lead him where he would rather not go - well, someone else seemed to think that might be a good idea...
PS - If anyone hasn't read "The Spirit of the Liturgy" it's well worth it. He really does believe in the power of the liturgy to make the Church, and the world, a better place - and he does a much better job of explaining his ideas than do I
On the subject of the local ordinary, his own orthodoxy comes from being in communion with the Bishop of Rome. I have no issues about the freeing up of the restrictions on the former Roman Rite. I'm convinced that the Holy Spirit has played a blinder by giving us Benedict XVI - and I think his 'purpose' is to renew the Liturgy. Immediately after his election I spoke to one of the Music and Liturgy editors, in quite pessimistic terms about the one-time Cardinal Ratzinger. He advised me to stop reading what people wrote about him and instead to read the man himself. It was brilliant advice. You might describe me as a convert to the Panzer-Kardinal
What's clear from his writings is that he has no desire to return to the days of the Low Mass as it was widely celebrated prior to Vat II. Rather, he like Jungmann, Bouyer and many other members of the Consilium thinks that the Mass we now have is not what was envisaged by the liturgical reforms of Vat II. To take only one example. His main thrust seems to be to re-centre the Mass on Christ and not the priest - and to avoid the loss of our liturgical heritage. Look at the pictures of him celebrating Mass in Brazil and in Assisi. In each case he is dwarfed by an image of Christ or a crucifix - he's demonstrating by example that the Mass is not about him as celebrant/presider/pope, but about Christ.
I'm not personally a proponent of the restoration of the 'Classical' Rite, but if a consequence of that restoration is that my regular Mass is celebrated with greater dignity, with more awareness of its sacrificial nature and less emphasis on the priest as host and compere I would be happy. Likewise, I'd be delighted if those who are attached to the former Rite exploited some of the options open to them under the liturgical law in force in 1962 (readings in the vernacular, Canon of the Mass audible enough that it could be followed, responses said/sung by the congregation).
There's an assumption on the part of some of my friends and colleagues that there was nothing good before Vat II, and that can't be true. If returning the baby to its bath water means that Pope Benedict has to fasten my bishop's girdle and lead him where he would rather not go - well, someone else seemed to think that might be a good idea...
PS - If anyone hasn't read "The Spirit of the Liturgy" it's well worth it. He really does believe in the power of the liturgy to make the Church, and the world, a better place - and he does a much better job of explaining his ideas than do I
Reginald wrote:On the subject of the local ordinary, his own orthodoxy comes from being in communion with the Bishop of Rome.
Of course; and if he isn't, the Bishop of Rome will remove him. But I had in mind the normal situation (cf Sacrosanctum Concilium 41).
musicus - moderator, Liturgy Matters
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1) Hymn Choices - for this evening (13th Sunday - C)
All People That On Earth Do Dwell
Take My Life (Havergal/Mayhew)
Soul Of My Saviour
Here I Am Lord
2) Final Hymn:
Here is the relevant quote from "Celebrating The Mass"
"The practice of a final song or hymn is foreign to the
Roman Rite, which is notably brief in its concluding rites.
The use of a final hymn at Mass which keeps ministers
and assembly in their place after the dismissal detracts
somewhat from the dimension of missionary imperative
present in the dismissal texts. The use of instrumental
music, particularly an organ voluntary, is more
appropriate to this moment."
Clearly, our bishops are uncomfortable with the use of a final hymn. Nevertheless, our bishop has not forbidden it and has presided at celebrations in our parish which have a final hymn (most recently at Confirmation a few weeks ago).
Spending time with one another after Mass chatting outside the church is encouraged and seen as being part of the "missionary imperative" yet communal singing is discouraged and not seen as being part of the "missionary imperative? Perhaps it would be better if those that wanted a final hymn waited for 10 minutes and went back into church for one afterwards? I take it that anyone wishing to remain in prayer or to light a candle is not discouraged from doing so? What about giving out 1st Communion Certificates, complete with photos?
According to GIRM, the Mass ends at the kissing of and bowing to the alter, so a final hymn cannot be part of the Mass per se. Isn't it an after Mass devotion?
Incidentally, the Tridentine Rite Mass inserts the Beginning of St John's Gospel immediately after the Ite Missa Est and I remember that then there used to be prayers at the foot of the altar (for Russia in the 1950s).....
Please, all I want to suggest is that all of us, ordained and laity have a duty to work together so that our liturgies are authentic and serve the people that we serve. However, the practical application of this may well be different from church to church, diocese to diocese, country to country.
Sorry for the length of this post but so many issues have been raised that even this doesn't do justice to them. I am sorry if offence is taken at anything I've said and hope we can maintain a vigorous debate whilst supporting one another in the often lonely ministry of church musician.
P.S. The spell check has rejected "Saviour" "afterwards" and "offence". Any chance of an English as opposed to US spell check?
All People That On Earth Do Dwell
Take My Life (Havergal/Mayhew)
Soul Of My Saviour
Here I Am Lord
2) Final Hymn:
Here is the relevant quote from "Celebrating The Mass"
"The practice of a final song or hymn is foreign to the
Roman Rite, which is notably brief in its concluding rites.
The use of a final hymn at Mass which keeps ministers
and assembly in their place after the dismissal detracts
somewhat from the dimension of missionary imperative
present in the dismissal texts. The use of instrumental
music, particularly an organ voluntary, is more
appropriate to this moment."
Clearly, our bishops are uncomfortable with the use of a final hymn. Nevertheless, our bishop has not forbidden it and has presided at celebrations in our parish which have a final hymn (most recently at Confirmation a few weeks ago).
Spending time with one another after Mass chatting outside the church is encouraged and seen as being part of the "missionary imperative" yet communal singing is discouraged and not seen as being part of the "missionary imperative? Perhaps it would be better if those that wanted a final hymn waited for 10 minutes and went back into church for one afterwards? I take it that anyone wishing to remain in prayer or to light a candle is not discouraged from doing so? What about giving out 1st Communion Certificates, complete with photos?
According to GIRM, the Mass ends at the kissing of and bowing to the alter, so a final hymn cannot be part of the Mass per se. Isn't it an after Mass devotion?
Incidentally, the Tridentine Rite Mass inserts the Beginning of St John's Gospel immediately after the Ite Missa Est and I remember that then there used to be prayers at the foot of the altar (for Russia in the 1950s).....
Please, all I want to suggest is that all of us, ordained and laity have a duty to work together so that our liturgies are authentic and serve the people that we serve. However, the practical application of this may well be different from church to church, diocese to diocese, country to country.
Sorry for the length of this post but so many issues have been raised that even this doesn't do justice to them. I am sorry if offence is taken at anything I've said and hope we can maintain a vigorous debate whilst supporting one another in the often lonely ministry of church musician.
P.S. The spell check has rejected "Saviour" "afterwards" and "offence". Any chance of an English as opposed to US spell check?
JW
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docmattc
- Posts: 987
- Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:42 am
- Parish / Diocese: Westminster
- Location: Near Cambridge
JW wrote:
Sorry for the length of this post but so many issues have been raised that even this doesn't do justice to them. I am sorry if offence is taken at anything I've said and hope we can maintain a vigorous debate whilst supporting one another in the often lonely ministry of church musician.
No offence taken at all. Vigorous debate is what we're about here, and supporting one another in what is definitely a lonely ministry even more what we're about!
I'm sure its in situations where there are different view points and where things are 'messy' that the Spirit is at work. If we all agreed with each other then the forum would be a very dull place indeed. I think the only time offence is taken on this forum is when folk justify their point of view with the argument "because you're all wrong and my opinion is the only valid one"
For the record, my running order tomorrow is:
We come to share our story
Gathering Gloria
Psalm from Comp resp Psalter
Salisbury Alleluia
Follow me
Gathering Euch Accs
Mass of Celtic Saints Lamb of God
Bless the Lord my Soul- communion
Guide me O thou great redeemer- post communion
I'm embarrassed to admit to 'Follow me' but there are a group who tell me they really like the 'seventies and eighties' hymns, so just occaisionally I get one out of the cupboard.
Next Sunday it will be
Seek ye first
Litany of peace- Bridge
Taste and see- Ward
silence post communion
all other bits the same (I do settings of the ordinary per season)
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TimSharrock
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 1:19 pm
- Location: Altrincham
a group who tell me they really like the 'seventies and eighties' hymns
That might be a partial description of us
We are formally the "Children's Music Group" at a child-heavy Mass. This week we sang
Follow me
(no sung Kyrie, Gloria,Psalm,Acclamation - our Pianist and the singers were at the Children's Liturgy)
Take our Bread
Holy, Holy from Mass of St Andrew
Our Father (Wiener)
Jesus Lamb of God (Inwood)
Will you come and follow me
Here I am Lord
I will be with you
(We usually need three communion-procession hymns, this time we left out a few verses of the third)
Walk in the light
Tim
14th Sunday per annum (C) / Sea Sunday
1) Seek ye first
2) When I survey
3) Peace, perfect peace is the gift of Christ our Lord
4) Eternal Father, strong to save
Hymns the same at all sung 3 Masses but Mass and Psalm settings differ depending on available resources. Normally, Saturday pm - hymns and simple sung Ordinary (organ but no choir or cantor) Sun 8.30am - Organ & Cantor. Sunday 10.30 Organ & Choir & Cantors)
This weekend though, choir are singing at Sat vigil, as there is no 10.30 due to the town being "closed" for the passage of the Tour De France!!
1) Seek ye first
2) When I survey
3) Peace, perfect peace is the gift of Christ our Lord
4) Eternal Father, strong to save
Hymns the same at all sung 3 Masses but Mass and Psalm settings differ depending on available resources. Normally, Saturday pm - hymns and simple sung Ordinary (organ but no choir or cantor) Sun 8.30am - Organ & Cantor. Sunday 10.30 Organ & Choir & Cantors)
This weekend though, choir are singing at Sat vigil, as there is no 10.30 due to the town being "closed" for the passage of the Tour De France!!
14th Sunday (First Communions)
We've got first communions, and the ordained uncle of one of the candidates is visiting and has chosen:
E: I the Lord ... here I am Lord
O: In Bread we Bring you Lord
C: to be decided
R: Gods Spirit is in my heart
E: I the Lord ... here I am Lord
O: In Bread we Bring you Lord
C: to be decided
R: Gods Spirit is in my heart
It's not a generation gap, it's a taste gap.
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nazard
- Posts: 555
- Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:08 am
- Parish / Diocese: Clifton
- Location: Muddiest Somerset
For Sea Sunday we have:
1) Eternal Father strong to save (a tradition which predates me. I did drop it one year and got thoroughly castigated,very painful...)
2) Like a mighty river flowing
3) Peace, perfect peace, in this dark world of sin
4) Ave Maria, O Maiden, O Mother ( Our Lady is the patron of our parish and I am a Terry fan)
1) Eternal Father strong to save (a tradition which predates me. I did drop it one year and got thoroughly castigated,very painful...)
2) Like a mighty river flowing
3) Peace, perfect peace, in this dark world of sin
4) Ave Maria, O Maiden, O Mother ( Our Lady is the patron of our parish and I am a Terry fan)