Latin Masses

[alan29]

When permission is given to widen the use of the Tridentine Mass, will there be some stipulation that the celebrants have a certain degree of fluent understanding of the Latin? I don't mean a general idea about the meaning of a given passage, but the kind of knowledge that a really good A level student would have. How intensive has the Latin teaching been in the seminaries over the last 30 years? How much is it taught now? Should individual priests be tested and licensed to celebrate in Latin if they reach a certain standard.
I think we need to be careful to avoid uncomprehending empty performances.
Alan

[Nick Baty]

Can we presume that those clergy who wish to celebrate Mass in Latin already have that fluency? Otherwise, why would they want to so do? Similarly, those lay people who wish to take part must have a fairly advanced knowledge of Latin otherwise they wouldn't want to use it. So, presumably they could help. And if neither clergy nor laity have this knowledge, it will be exactly the sort of uncomprehending/uncomprehended situation you describe and why would anybody want this if they didn't already speak the language fluently.

Having said that, as the vernacular was always intended as an alternative rather than the norm, why not celebrate the Tridentine Mass in English? And as Musica Sacram made it clear that "the usage of entrusting to the choir alone the entire singing of the whole Proper and of the whole of the Ordinary, to the complete exclusion of the people's participation in the singing, is to be deprecated", we could have Tridentine Liturgy in English with something like Patrick Geary's Salsa Acclamations.

If Latin is integral to the Tridentine Rite, who/where are the priests willing to do this? From my own straw poll they appear to be the youngsters just coming out of seminary – well, it always has been generally that age group who are most keen to experiment. The older priests I've spoken to, those ordained before Vatican II, look horrified at the thought of returning to such a complicated ritual. Those of my own age group appear to have interest in Latin whatsoever and two I know well have said they would simply not celebrate it.

Given that, these days, so many people can drive to the church of their choice, I can see a split developing, rather as we see in liturgical practice in the Anglican Church. The young guys will be there in their fiddle-back chasubles, backs to the people, inaudibly muttering foreign words they may or may not understand while the congregation ignores them as they thumb their rosaries or ancient prayer books (wasn't that how things were done?). Meanwhile, I'll be there with my similarly-approaching-middle-age parish priest, leading the old folk in rousing sanctuses by Farrell, Inwood and Walker. And they young guys will laugh and call us reactionary old gits.

How about compulsory A-level Latin? If you wish to attend a Tridentine Liturgy, you simply show your certificate on the way in before you are given a copy of the Liber Usualis which you would need because of Pius X's instruction in his Motu proprio of 1903, Tra le sollecitudini: "This chant be restored to the use of the people, so that they may take a more active part in the offices, as they did in former times." Well, if you're going Tridentine, you might as well do it properly.

And if you do have a choir, remember there must be no women because in the same document Pius made it clear that singers in church have "a really liturgical office, and that women, being incapable of such an office, cannot be admitted to the choir".

So, to celebrate a Tridentine Mass you need:
1) a priest who speaks Latin fluently
2) a congregation with an excellent understanding of Latin who can also sing and possibly
3) an all male choir

To those who are trying it, I wish you luck. It all sounds rather disastrous.

[nazard]

I actually went to a tridentine mass on Sunday, so I will report my feelings.

I could have gone to my local parish where I usually go, but I just couldn't face the couple of elderly ladies singing "Praise and Worship" songs way out of time and tune which was on offer. A local Benedictine has started a monthly tridentine mass, so I thought I would give it a go.

I do attend tridentine mass three of four times a year, so I am not unfamiliar with it and have a beautiful trdentine bilingual daily missal I bought for 50p in Oxfam. I first went to a tridentine (1962 missal) mass after a thirty nine year break, and found it not to my taste, but in fact I was hooked, and after a year started going on holidays of obligation, when a different Benedictine in another monastery says early morning tridentine mass.

Mass this Sunday was extremely "dry". There was no music, and the congregation, me excepted, did not join in the responses. I do not appear to have caused any upset by responding: afterwards everyone was very friendly and no one mentioned it.

The priest wore a gothic chasuble. He spoke slowly and clearly, with a good oratorical style, and I had no trouble understanding. A-level latin is certainly not necessary: the latin of the mass is not Horace or Virgil. The equivalent of "Latin for Holiday makers" would suffice. The sermon was short, to the point and inspiring, and of course, in english.

The offertory prayer was read out audibly, which I thought was not usual, but it is an inspiring text. I don't know what the reformers were thinking of when they dropped it totally. The silent cannon gave me a chance to meditate deeply on some elements of the prayer. The Roman Cannon is loaded with deep thoughts that really do stand a lot of examination.

Communion at the rail again gave me a chance to think about what I was actually doing. I can see why it would be a good idea to reintroduce it.

My overall thoughts were that I could see why the reformers wanted change. I just felt that they overdid it. The other main conclusion was that we put in too much music. The proportion of musicians in society is not high enough to provide music of any quality at every mass, and the appalling cacophony you often hear in catholic churches really doesn't help.

The most important lesson I learned was that change from hereon needs to be undertaken with far more gentleness and sympathy than it was in the sixties. Then we were just told it was happening and we had to like it. A large proportion of the church just walked out and a steady erosion has continued ever since. I would like to ask you to remember those saints associated with liturgy, St Philip Neri and St Jean Vianney for example, to pray as much as you can and be moved by charity in all you do.

[Sonoqui]

Communion at the rail again gave me a chance to think about what I was actually doing. I can see why it would be a good idea to reintroduce it.
.

Hmmm! Although I am most definitely NOT in favour of a return of the 'old' Latin Mass (much as I genuinely love Latin and I do still read my old Latin Sunday Missal occasionally - yes, really!), I do agree with you about the use of the Communion Rail.

I remember it well - sadly, its use ceased in my parish nearly 20 years ago.

The use of the Communion Rail gave me the opportunity, as I processed up one of our aisles towards the rail, to empty my mind of 'other things'.

When I was actually kneeling AT the rail, I could concentrate on what was about to 'happen' for a few moments before the priest reached me. Afterwards, I was able to remain at the rail for a few moments to absorb, in more ways than one, exactly WHAT had just 'happened'.

Now? Well, It's a bit like a conveyor belt isn't it?

I do truly miss the use of the Communion rails but .............

In my Parish, we are fortunate enough to have not one, but two, excellent choirs. And the one that I usually hear has introduced the use of a Communion song which starts as soon as our priest has received his Communion and continues until the last of the congregation has received theirs.

For now, that is an acceptable replacement for the Communion Rails. But I do hope for their return!

[asb]

In my Parish, we are fortunate enough to have not one, but two, excellent choirs. And the one that I usually hear has introduced the use of a Communion song which starts as soon as our priest has received his Communion and continues until the last of the congregation has received theirs.

As it should - all power to you / them.

My PP insists that the Communion hymn should not start until the last few are receiving; it is therefore neither a Communion hymn or a Thanksgiving hymn.

Before anyone "suggests" it, I have had to abandon responsorial music at this point, as there is a lady in the congregation who used to sing in our choir until moving abroad; she ran a choir somewhere for a few years and has now moved back, but is unable to rejoin the choir due to work commitments. She however insists on joining in with the Cantor if it is something she knows, which means that the congregation think they should be singing and try to join in, and then moan to me that they "would love to join in but I hadn't put the number on the notice sheet". And again, before anyone sugests it, the PP won't intervene in this case as he is terrified of this lady's mother!

[Claire B]

I can'r remeber if it was bob Hurd last August, or the copy of SSG mag I was given at the Clifton music day which spoke convincingly about the procession to the altar being part of communion, not just a ragged shuffle to the front.

It's when we stand in solidarity (ok and shuffle a bit) and walk forward to meet our Lord.

Maybe there should be some more crowd management in force. My experience in the small, pewed anglican church I attended for some years was that you stayed seated until the verger opened the door to the pew and invited you to join the end of the queue. This management was a necessity, no one could move if all the doors opened at once!

I know when visiting other churches I have to watch carefully to catch the unwritten rules for how the procession does form.

[docmattc]

Should individual priests be tested and licensed to celebrate in Latin if they reach a certain standard.
I think we need to be careful to avoid uncomprehending empty performances.

To a certain extent the same would be true of musicians. Having never experienced the Tridentine Rite, I'd want some training in its rubrics before acompanying at one (not that I have a burning desire to do so) This would have to be more than the presiding priest giving a running order- as now, I'd like to understand the symbolism, meaning, and function of each piece of music so that it isn't an uncomprehending empty performance.

It will be interesting to see how Tridentine the rite has to be. In a hypothetical example where a parish decides to celebrate in the old rite on the last Sunday of the month, do the parishioners have to fast from midnight on that Sunday but only for an hour on the others before receiving communion? There is a whole raft of accompanying issues here, some of which Nick has mentioned. How much of celebrating in the Tridentine Rite will require turning the clock back and in doing so putting much of VCII back in the bag? I don't think this is Benedict's plan at all, rather to ease tensions between opposing ideologies. Unfortunately though, I suspect it may well widen the gulf.

It occurs to me that the proper arbiter and manager of this tension is and should remain the local bishop. If we are in harmony with him we are ordodox; if not, we aren't. Which is why I am with those who hope and pray that Rome does not go over the heads of local ordinaries and decree that the Tridentine Rite may be celebrated without reference to the local bishop. (Or the Ambrosian Rite, or the Church of England's Communion Service, or whatever - my point is about the authority of the bishop.)

The editorial in this week's Tablet makes precisely this point. The Tridentine Rite is as valid as the Novus Ordo. I have no problem with that but it is not more valid, and shouldn't be used if the baggage that comes with it is a rejection of VCII theology and/or rites.

Nor should it be used because: The priest feels more power over the people if he wanders round in a biretta; he thinks he looks good in a fiddle back chasuble; lessening the congregation's participation puts the focus on himself; it might return us to the days when the PP was God and no-one dared question him; complex rites with 'useless repitition' (SC 34) float his boat because he feels they make him important. The focus should always be Christ. I don't think the Tridentine Rite is any less open to abuse of this focus than the new rite- just in different ways.

The local Bishop should be able to step in of the motives for celebrating the Tridentine Rite are questionable.

[Anne]

Why was there such a desire in Vatican II to change the liturgy from the traditional Latin Tridentine Mass to the new order of the Mass and to have it in the Vernacular?

[asb]

Should individual priests be tested and licensed to celebrate in Latin if they reach a certain standard.
I think we need to be careful to avoid uncomprehending empty performances.

To a certain extent the same would be true of musicians. Having never experienced the Tridentine Rite, I'd want some training in its rubrics before acompanying at one (not that I have a burning desire to do so) This would have to be more than the presiding priest giving a running order- as now, I'd like to understand the symbolism, meaning, and function of each piece of music so that it isn't an uncomprehending empty performance.

It will be interesting to see how Tridentine the rite has to be. In a hypothetical example where a parish decides to celebrate in the old rite on the last Sunday of the month, do the parishioners have to fast from midnight on that Sunday but only for an hour on the others before receiving communion? There is a whole raft of accompanying issues here, some of which Nick has mentioned. How much of celebrating in the Tridentine Rite will require turning the clock back and in doing so putting much of VCII back in the bag? I don't think this is Benedict's plan at all, rather to ease tensions between opposing ideologies. Unfortunately though, I suspect it may well widen the gulf.

It occurs to me that the proper arbiter and manager of this tension is and should remain the local bishop. If we are in harmony with him we are ordodox; if not, we aren't. Which is why I am with those who hope and pray that Rome does not go over the heads of local ordinaries and decree that the Tridentine Rite may be celebrated without reference to the local bishop. (Or the Ambrosian Rite, or the Church of England's Communion Service, or whatever - my point is about the authority of the bishop.)

The editorial in this week's Tablet makes precisely this point. The Tridentine Rite is as valid as the Novus Ordo. I have no problem with that but it is not more valid, and shouldn't be used if the baggage that comes with it is a rejection of VCII theology and/or rites.

Nor should it be used because: The priest feels more power over the people if he wanders round in a biretta; he thinks he looks good in a fiddle back chasuble; lessening the congregation's participation puts the focus on himself; it might return us to the days when the PP was God and no-one dared question him; complex rites with 'useless repitition' (SC 34) float his boat because he feels they make him important. The focus should always be Christ. I don't think the Tridentine Rite is any less open to abuse of this focus than the new rite- just in different ways.

The local Bishop should be able to step in of the motives for celebrating the Tridentine Rite are questionable.

I had a dreadful experience the first time I was asked to play for the monthly Tridentine that is held in our church. I talked it through beforehand with the priest, who instructed me to start the De Angelis Kyrie as he approached the altar, and said that by the time the Kyrie had finished he would be ready to intone the Gloria. I said "How will I know that you are ready?" to which he replied "Don't worry, I will be!"

He wasn't. I played the Gloria intonation over 5 times before he responded.

I've never been asked again - they bring their "own" organist now!

On the subject of fasting from midnight, last Sunday the Tridentine priest was demolishing coffee and a packet of Hob Nobs half an hour before kick-off!

[Reginald]

The Eucharistic fast was reduced to three hours in 1957 - but you're right, there are many issues that would need ironing out and that may be why it's taking so long for the Motu Proprio to see the light of day. Under the modern law the priest's fasting rules change if he's saying multiple Masses - I've no idea if that was the case in the past. Anyone out there got a bigger anorak than me and can tell us?

[alan29]

asb's experiences of using the Kyrie as an introit, and the celebrant breaking the fast should be posted on one of those Tridentine web-sites that likes to collect examples of liturgical abuse!!!
Alan

[docmattc]

asb's experiences of using the Kyrie as an introit, and the celebrant breaking the fast should be posted on one of those Tridentine web-sites that likes to collect examples of liturgical abuse!!!
Alan

Exactly, I'm sure the Tridentine had (has) as many liturgical abuses as we do now, they're just different and fewer people noticed!

[nazard]

Two quick observations here:

1) Abuse was rife before reform started in a big way in 1965, the most common form being to belt through mass in a stream of muttering without waiting for the responses, which were made concurrently at the same speed. I have known Sunday mass, with homily, over in 25 minutes and people tell me this is not a record.

The contemporary abuse of ad libbing prayers, ignoring rubrics and badly played music in questionable taste is on occasions combined with the old abuse of rushing. However, the fact that the term "liturgical abuse" has come into use and that people talk and write about it is a sign of hope. Keep talking and praying and pestering the clergy and practicing your music, and things should get better.

2) Although VII did call for reform, it did not specify how much, and did not call for the total replacement of latin with the vernacular. A great deal less reform than actually came about would have satisfied SC, and I personally think that the mandate of SC was exceeded in some areas. Those of you who work in engineering might like to take a copy of the old mass, of the new mass and of SC, and performing a "design audit". I don't think the new mass would pass.

[Claire B]

After reading some of these posts I'm very thankful that our PP follows the rubris to the letter, doesn't improvise prayers, etc.

He manages to use the Children's canon with absolute dignity and authority and is quite happy for all the children to use their noise makers in the (frequest) responses.

(It is also the only time most children make such noise; we have a children's mass once a monthe, so they know what is expected).

I did want to ask if anyone had heard when the 'Peace' might be moved? Since reading Sacramntum Caritatis, I have been conscious of how it disrupts the quiet preparation as we move to communion.

??

[asb]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 980468.ece

Discuss!