I hope the title is not too cryptic :?,
I'm talking about churches with two Sunday masses (or one Sunday and one Saturday evening) and two separate congregations (or assemblies if you like) who never meet (except at Easter and Christmas!).
I thought I'd bring this up as our Bishop is talking about moving towards one Sunday Mass per parish to economise on clergy and unify parishes and I was wondering what might happen.
In the church that I attend there's a 10.30 Mass which seems to attract the over 60s with trad. hymns, organ and choir. On the other hand the 5.30 Mass seems to be for anyone under 60 including any so-called 'youth', with a music group and 'upbeat' (albeit a bit dated) music. It's almost like being in two different churches.
Anyone got any ideas or experiences of this situation?
One church - two congregations
Moderators: Dom Perignon, Casimir
Be patient...
Welcome, Maz. Last year this happened in our area. One priest had to support two parishes, with the result that each church got one less mass. It caused serious concern - the poorer church felt like they were getting a raw deal, but there was little that could be done. If you insisted on going to an evening service, then travel (about two miles) was not considered to be a serious issue.
Tough decisions had to be made and the general feeling was 'we either make this work or it breaks us'. Suddenly there seemed to be an awful lot to lose and people did make an effort.
As it turned out, for the poorer, one-mass church it turned out pretty good. Suddenly, two half-congregations came together and virtually filled the church - you got a better sense of community at which most age groups were represented. Possibly it made people a bit more dedicated (as they should be, right?) about getting to the one-and-only sunday mass, with the result that many people were sort of 'forced' to meet up. You looked around and suddenly there was this big 'gene pool' of new faces who you never knew before - and who probably lived nearby.
I think it's also good for visitors to see full congregations.
Great things did not happen rapidly, but the initial feeling was that we had overcome this dreadful difficulty, and come out on top. Optimism grew. Somehow sitting in busy pews was a lot nicer than sitting on a long, lonely bench.
I've heard priests concerned that if they cut out services they will lose their clientele. But I've always felt that three or more masses over the sabbath - offered to dismally small 'congregations' barely describable in those terms - is a tremendous effort for one person, and a generous luxury that we can no longer afford.
I've since moved and don't know the current situation, but all I can say is that once it had happened the benefits probably outweighed our concern. Pretty soon you adjust and it becomes normal. After all, more services were only introduced because at some happy time in our history, so many people went to church that they physically couldn't all fit into one building.
In a way, I think losing masses is making a sacrifice, and one for which, given only a short time, you will be rewarded. Two churches - but there's only one Catholic mass. You may have to make other adjustments eg as to how you 'do' the music, but you just have to work the problem together, for the greater service of the community. From experience, addressing this problem is not as difficult as it looks.
Tough decisions had to be made and the general feeling was 'we either make this work or it breaks us'. Suddenly there seemed to be an awful lot to lose and people did make an effort.
As it turned out, for the poorer, one-mass church it turned out pretty good. Suddenly, two half-congregations came together and virtually filled the church - you got a better sense of community at which most age groups were represented. Possibly it made people a bit more dedicated (as they should be, right?) about getting to the one-and-only sunday mass, with the result that many people were sort of 'forced' to meet up. You looked around and suddenly there was this big 'gene pool' of new faces who you never knew before - and who probably lived nearby.
I think it's also good for visitors to see full congregations.
Great things did not happen rapidly, but the initial feeling was that we had overcome this dreadful difficulty, and come out on top. Optimism grew. Somehow sitting in busy pews was a lot nicer than sitting on a long, lonely bench.
I've heard priests concerned that if they cut out services they will lose their clientele. But I've always felt that three or more masses over the sabbath - offered to dismally small 'congregations' barely describable in those terms - is a tremendous effort for one person, and a generous luxury that we can no longer afford.
I've since moved and don't know the current situation, but all I can say is that once it had happened the benefits probably outweighed our concern. Pretty soon you adjust and it becomes normal. After all, more services were only introduced because at some happy time in our history, so many people went to church that they physically couldn't all fit into one building.
In a way, I think losing masses is making a sacrifice, and one for which, given only a short time, you will be rewarded. Two churches - but there's only one Catholic mass. You may have to make other adjustments eg as to how you 'do' the music, but you just have to work the problem together, for the greater service of the community. From experience, addressing this problem is not as difficult as it looks.
It's surprising how we adapt in these 'emergency' situations!
Maybe the concept of chapels of ease and multiple masses is redundant now that many of our congregations are on the decrease.
Another similar issue is that of 'chapels of ease' - which I think is the technical term for smaller churches built/set up within the same areas as larger churches at a time when the congregation was outgrowing the main church. More often than not they seem to also divide a parish.
In a different parish in which I play there is a large main church and smaller chapel of ease which used to be a scout hut and was 'upgraded' to an ex-Methodist church a few years back as the parish priest fell in love with the building and thought that the parishioners deserved a 'proper church'. The two congregtions rarely meet up and many people deliberately don't attend events at each other's church as they don't like each other! It's a real 'them and us' situation.
Of course the big issue here is about choice and convenience. Not everyone is prepared to commit to a Sunday morning Mass now - what with Tesco's open, taking the kids to play football, lying in, being hungover etc, to name but a few possible reasons.
But I agree that it is really depressing sitting in an empty church - and the singing is half as loud of course.
Maybe the concept of chapels of ease and multiple masses is redundant now that many of our congregations are on the decrease.
Another similar issue is that of 'chapels of ease' - which I think is the technical term for smaller churches built/set up within the same areas as larger churches at a time when the congregation was outgrowing the main church. More often than not they seem to also divide a parish.
In a different parish in which I play there is a large main church and smaller chapel of ease which used to be a scout hut and was 'upgraded' to an ex-Methodist church a few years back as the parish priest fell in love with the building and thought that the parishioners deserved a 'proper church'. The two congregtions rarely meet up and many people deliberately don't attend events at each other's church as they don't like each other! It's a real 'them and us' situation.
Of course the big issue here is about choice and convenience. Not everyone is prepared to commit to a Sunday morning Mass now - what with Tesco's open, taking the kids to play football, lying in, being hungover etc, to name but a few possible reasons.
But I agree that it is really depressing sitting in an empty church - and the singing is half as loud of course.
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Ros Wood
- Posts: 77
- Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2004 4:19 pm
- Parish / Diocese: Christ the King Chingford - Brentwood Diocese
- Location: London
Not all churches are declining. In 1997 we built a new church which was double the size of the old one and cut the number of Masses from 4 to 3. At each of those Masses the church is now 3/4 full to full with people standing. First Communions, Christmas and Good Friday are a nightmare as we try to squeeze everyone in and not everyone is understanding about needing to create a space for the Priest and Servers to enter the church. However much this may be the ideal, there is no way that we could reduce the number of Masses without building another church or being very uncomfortable.
Getting different congregations to meet up
Another option is events. We had a priest who made a big point of how important it was that "everyone should attend this beetle drive for the good of the community" - or whatever it was. He sort of made you feel a little guilty about not going ("just one tuesday night for six weeks, nothing on the telly"), and people used to organise car pools to make sure as many as poss got there. Helps to have a decent space to hold the event in of course.
Prayers, and maybe a hymn or two (it added a church community flavour to the event - a useful reminder) to start, and prayers to end, he got hold of the full set of Alpha vids with Nick Gumble(?). It seemed that getting people to meet up at the school hall to watch TV was easy enough. Half way through each presentation there was a little table discussion exercise. Often the tables had people from different masses at them (if you feel daring you can even allocate people to different tables to make sure they mix) so you did tend to make new contacts. Worth a shot?
Not quite the problem you are discussing, but I thought it sort of vaguely related to your situation. People often comment on how little intermixing there is between congregations, even in the same church. But this is one method of getting them to mix, and it can also be used to unite churches in a local area. That needs a bit more planning and effort but the planners are the ones who benefit first if not most! If links are maintained, events held at one church tend to be supported reciprocally. We did it with a quiz night - managed to get just a few people from another church to form a team or two. It was like pulling teeth, but it was "a great pleasure to welcome the team from St Bingo's, who had made the special effort to be here tonight..."
Prayers, and maybe a hymn or two (it added a church community flavour to the event - a useful reminder) to start, and prayers to end, he got hold of the full set of Alpha vids with Nick Gumble(?). It seemed that getting people to meet up at the school hall to watch TV was easy enough. Half way through each presentation there was a little table discussion exercise. Often the tables had people from different masses at them (if you feel daring you can even allocate people to different tables to make sure they mix) so you did tend to make new contacts. Worth a shot?
Not quite the problem you are discussing, but I thought it sort of vaguely related to your situation. People often comment on how little intermixing there is between congregations, even in the same church. But this is one method of getting them to mix, and it can also be used to unite churches in a local area. That needs a bit more planning and effort but the planners are the ones who benefit first if not most! If links are maintained, events held at one church tend to be supported reciprocally. We did it with a quiz night - managed to get just a few people from another church to form a team or two. It was like pulling teeth, but it was "a great pleasure to welcome the team from St Bingo's, who had made the special effort to be here tonight..."
A lot of it seems to depend on how outgoing and sociable people are and this seems to vary in different parts of the country. Anyone have any experience of this?
The church community often mirrors the regional community from which it is formed. There are differences between city, town, country communities etc. Maybe this is another topic entirely.
The church community often mirrors the regional community from which it is formed. There are differences between city, town, country communities etc. Maybe this is another topic entirely.
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Tsume Tsuyu
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 9:40 am
- Location: UK
I have worshipped at the same church my entire life and yet 'The Eight O'Clock People' are still shadowy figures whose identities remain, by and large, unknown to me!
I attended the 10 am Mass for many years, that being our main parish Mass - the sung Mass. When a second choir was formed, it opted to sing at the 6pm Mass on the 1st and 3rd Saturdays and on the 4th and (occasionally) 5th Sundays, at the 10 am Mass. As I joined that choir, I found myself part of two quite different congregations, depending upon which Mass I attended. However, singing on a Saturday evening and on a Sunday has enabled me to get to know more parishioners. As I have said, it is 'The Eight O'Clock People' who remain an enigma. On the rare occasions, I've been to 8 am Mass, I've felt almost as if I were a visitor in my own church. Attempts at communication that early in the morning, tend not to be terribly successful and so I’ve not made much headway in the ‘getting to know you’ stakes.
This is why parish socials are so important. We have a fundraising group and most of the social events are organised by them. These events do bring together parishioners who otherwise worship quite separately from one another although it has to be said that not many of ‘The Eight O’Clock People’ come along. This may have something to do with the fact that no-one likes getting up for 8 am Mass to flog tickets!
Singing at two different Masses is interesting since one congregation is far more receptive to new songs than the other. We try to consider this when we are planning; we always try to ensure that we include some traditional hymns for the Sunday congregation whereas, on a Saturday, we would not necessarily worry about that if lesser known songs reflect the readings better.
I’d like to get to know ‘The Eight O’Clock People’ better but it always feels as though going to that Mass is like going to a party to which one hasn’t received a formal invitation. Still, I suppose it’s up to me to gatecrash!
TT.
I attended the 10 am Mass for many years, that being our main parish Mass - the sung Mass. When a second choir was formed, it opted to sing at the 6pm Mass on the 1st and 3rd Saturdays and on the 4th and (occasionally) 5th Sundays, at the 10 am Mass. As I joined that choir, I found myself part of two quite different congregations, depending upon which Mass I attended. However, singing on a Saturday evening and on a Sunday has enabled me to get to know more parishioners. As I have said, it is 'The Eight O'Clock People' who remain an enigma. On the rare occasions, I've been to 8 am Mass, I've felt almost as if I were a visitor in my own church. Attempts at communication that early in the morning, tend not to be terribly successful and so I’ve not made much headway in the ‘getting to know you’ stakes.
This is why parish socials are so important. We have a fundraising group and most of the social events are organised by them. These events do bring together parishioners who otherwise worship quite separately from one another although it has to be said that not many of ‘The Eight O’Clock People’ come along. This may have something to do with the fact that no-one likes getting up for 8 am Mass to flog tickets!
Singing at two different Masses is interesting since one congregation is far more receptive to new songs than the other. We try to consider this when we are planning; we always try to ensure that we include some traditional hymns for the Sunday congregation whereas, on a Saturday, we would not necessarily worry about that if lesser known songs reflect the readings better.
I’d like to get to know ‘The Eight O’Clock People’ better but it always feels as though going to that Mass is like going to a party to which one hasn’t received a formal invitation. Still, I suppose it’s up to me to gatecrash!
TT.