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Migrant workers and music
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Nick Baty
- Posts: 2199
- Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:27 am
- Parish / Diocese: Formerly Our Lady Immaculate, Everton, Liverpool
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Migrant workers and music
Last edited by Nick Baty on Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Migrant Workers church support
I think we're about as 'ready for it' as we've ever been - but that's not necessarily bad. One benefit of job-related immigration is that in general (as before) groups of people, not individuals, come to the UK; they are usually not 'isolated' as such, and in many places, they do have their own support networks, often provided through (or resulting in) a church/mass which is Catholic but also familiar to their home country. We've all seen Greek Orthodox churches, Catholic Clubs and the like, I'm sure. I wouldn't say this is the ideal way to integrate, but it does at least provide a firm foundation of support.
Indeed, in my parents' parish (Sevenoaks) there is a Polish priest living there in an annex of the presbytery, placed there by one of the Polish bishops specifically to minister to the needs of the Polish faithful around West Kent.
As for around Rugby, there was already a Polish mass when I arrived in 1985 - it was one of the places where ex-servicemen settled.
Finally, I don't think we should agonise about worshipping separately. The universality of the church is underlined by our acceptance of being many communities within it.
As for around Rugby, there was already a Polish mass when I arrived in 1985 - it was one of the places where ex-servicemen settled.
Finally, I don't think we should agonise about worshipping separately. The universality of the church is underlined by our acceptance of being many communities within it.
It's not a generation gap, it's a taste gap.
Migrant music?
As to utilisation of 'world' music into churches, I think this is very much a secondary issue. I've seen it done, and I have to say it is patiently tolerated, but I can't honestly say it appears to provide any 'omni-congregational' benefits, sorry Nick. When in Rome....
It's OK for us right on, one world, one church types, but for your average pew warmer it's just too much. We're already talking about how difficult it is to get our own new music in! Why try and squeeze another quart into an already full pint pot?
By all means use it if you can for an 'event', e.g. a Big Sing. But for mass be sparing, or avoid. I can't stand it when I hear people are avoiding mass because they know that 'this week is African music', or whatever.
It's OK for us right on, one world, one church types, but for your average pew warmer it's just too much. We're already talking about how difficult it is to get our own new music in! Why try and squeeze another quart into an already full pint pot?
By all means use it if you can for an 'event', e.g. a Big Sing. But for mass be sparing, or avoid. I can't stand it when I hear people are avoiding mass because they know that 'this week is African music', or whatever.
There are many nationalities in our congregation but only one family, or maybe two, from any one country.
We have a German doctor in our choir, I have said good morning in their language to the grandparents of the one Polish family we have, (and my 2 year old grandson knows bits of Tagalog because his other grandmother is Filipino.) But I have not yet found any incomers who know any of their own Mass music well enough to pass it on.
This includes Jamaican, Lebanese, Singaporean, and people from different parts of Africa, as well as various Europeans and South Americans.
They could not be said to form a community, as we are outside the main town centre.
Ours is a medium parish, and very friendly and welcoming to incomers, but it seems that sharing the music of the country they have left is not a priority.
We have a German doctor in our choir, I have said good morning in their language to the grandparents of the one Polish family we have, (and my 2 year old grandson knows bits of Tagalog because his other grandmother is Filipino.) But I have not yet found any incomers who know any of their own Mass music well enough to pass it on.
This includes Jamaican, Lebanese, Singaporean, and people from different parts of Africa, as well as various Europeans and South Americans.
They could not be said to form a community, as we are outside the main town centre.
Ours is a medium parish, and very friendly and welcoming to incomers, but it seems that sharing the music of the country they have left is not a priority.
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docmattc
- Posts: 987
- Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:42 am
- Parish / Diocese: Westminster
- Location: Near Cambridge
Both Bob Hurd and Phil Jakob talked about this at last year's summer school. Bob Hurd is working in California where his congregation are English/Hispanic/Filipino and many from around the pacific rim. He is writing music that includes all these groups, in collaboration with native speakers. (He gave a couple of examples of making horrendous errors when attempting it himself including asking the congregation in Korean to stand and sing "God is a big white elephant")
He talked a lot about how to achieve inclusivity rather than tokenism with multicultural music.
His key was to include members of each community, so he didn't have an English speaking choir making a hash of a Korean verse when there were Koreans who could sing it properly. (As a tonal language, we westerners find it a very difficult language apparently). This integrates, but also celebrates the universality of the church.
From what I remember, Bob Hurd seemed to advocate having verses of a piece in several languages, rather than several pieces each in a different language.
The US bishops conference (having had very multilingual church for a while) have produced guidelines http://www.nccbuscc.org/mrs/liturgis.pdf.
Like VML, the parish where I play has a growing range of nationalities in the congregation, but few from each one. I'm not sure how to reflect this musically, or even if I should.
Welcoming multicultural groups is an issue that's going to become more and more significant as we discussed last summer. Will we embrace the diversity, or expect it to conform to 'the way we've always done it'? As someone who's viewed with suspicion because I was born 35miles outside the parish boundaries I suspect I know the answer
He talked a lot about how to achieve inclusivity rather than tokenism with multicultural music.
His key was to include members of each community, so he didn't have an English speaking choir making a hash of a Korean verse when there were Koreans who could sing it properly. (As a tonal language, we westerners find it a very difficult language apparently). This integrates, but also celebrates the universality of the church.
From what I remember, Bob Hurd seemed to advocate having verses of a piece in several languages, rather than several pieces each in a different language.
The US bishops conference (having had very multilingual church for a while) have produced guidelines http://www.nccbuscc.org/mrs/liturgis.pdf.
Like VML, the parish where I play has a growing range of nationalities in the congregation, but few from each one. I'm not sure how to reflect this musically, or even if I should.
Welcoming multicultural groups is an issue that's going to become more and more significant as we discussed last summer. Will we embrace the diversity, or expect it to conform to 'the way we've always done it'? As someone who's viewed with suspicion because I was born 35miles outside the parish boundaries I suspect I know the answer
To clarify...
You misunderstand - by 'our own new music', I meant English language, by recognised, published composers: Walker, Farrell, Joncas, Hurd etc. With a rather dated selection of english hymnbooks in general use, space for new composers (any language) is limited. To add further 'non-english' music to the mass may even be counterproductive. I'm not saying don't do it, but here I would tread very carefully. It hasn't had great results in my experience.Nick wrote:Then the music is either unwanted, unsuitable, ill-chosen or just plain yukky. Why use new music if it's not needed?
From the viewpoint of someone who runs choirs and singing groups (singing primarily religious/ liturgical music) in schools in West Yorkshire.
The immigrant children (of wholm there are many - mainly Eastern European) love learning to sing songs in English - in fact it teaches them the language quicker than speaking it as they can remember the tune!
The children love singing in Latin as they are all starting from the beginning together, and in fact, it is often the immigrant children who pick up the Latin quickest and teach it to the rest of the class!
The means when it comes to school/ parish liturgies all of the children tend to sing with great enthusiasm whatever the language (In the past month we have done songs in English, Latin, French, Spanish and a variety of African languages...)
The immigrant children (of wholm there are many - mainly Eastern European) love learning to sing songs in English - in fact it teaches them the language quicker than speaking it as they can remember the tune!
The children love singing in Latin as they are all starting from the beginning together, and in fact, it is often the immigrant children who pick up the Latin quickest and teach it to the rest of the class!
The means when it comes to school/ parish liturgies all of the children tend to sing with great enthusiasm whatever the language (In the past month we have done songs in English, Latin, French, Spanish and a variety of African languages...)
Nope...
I am not arguing with you Nick, I'm saying what I feel in my simpleton english. When I talk about english music I mean "it's got english words", and I didn't just say 'space for new composers is limited', I said it's limited within the hymnbooks in general current use, meaning the books are so chocka with stuff we should have chucked years ago, only a limited sample of good new hymns is generally available. So yes, introduce your own new music or stuff from outside the standard hymnals by all means.
I don't regard the process of introducing foreign language texts into the mass as beneficial. By all means translate, or use foreign tunes or use foreign hymns/verses elsewhere, but I disagree that using foreign hymns in the mass is particularly helpful to integration. As Chris has identified, quite the opposite would appear to be more use. There are occasions, such as Chris's school groups where it appears to work both ways, I don't deny that, but I remain sceptical as to whether any real language learning may occur through this - it's just considered as a 'fun' activity amongst children.
Put the boots on my feet: If I migrated to a non-english speaking country with a hundred other Catholics and we all attended the same church, I wouldn't expect them to sing english hymns at mass for our benefit. How would that benefit the whole community? It certainly wouldn't help me to integrate - just get me talking more slackjaw english - not a fat lot of use to me in some far corner of a foreign land.
I don't regard the process of introducing foreign language texts into the mass as beneficial. By all means translate, or use foreign tunes or use foreign hymns/verses elsewhere, but I disagree that using foreign hymns in the mass is particularly helpful to integration. As Chris has identified, quite the opposite would appear to be more use. There are occasions, such as Chris's school groups where it appears to work both ways, I don't deny that, but I remain sceptical as to whether any real language learning may occur through this - it's just considered as a 'fun' activity amongst children.
Put the boots on my feet: If I migrated to a non-english speaking country with a hundred other Catholics and we all attended the same church, I wouldn't expect them to sing english hymns at mass for our benefit. How would that benefit the whole community? It certainly wouldn't help me to integrate - just get me talking more slackjaw english - not a fat lot of use to me in some far corner of a foreign land.
No problem. I was interested to hear a clerical member of one southern diocese say on (national) radio that he considered it their business to 'put the local Polish priest out of a job' (those are pretty much the words he used 
) in their pursuit of effective migrant immigration. I think we can see what he really meant but I can imagine a large cut of the 20000+ strong Polish community of that diocese choking on their morning coffee. Can't really see it happening either, although I suspect the mother country would like their man back some time 
. No question about him being a busy bunny though.
I believe they have their own hymnbook in Polish, but again I think that a separate mass for a specific language group, while a sign of church support, does nothing for integration. I guess it all depends on your reasons for being in another country - to set up your home there, or for better work/pay opportunities?. A lot if not all, of our Filipino nurses are here to earn good wages, most of which goes straight back home. I've heard several hushed treasurer-type opinions to the effect that immigration may be good for making churches look full (even daily services suddenly looking worthy), but do nothing for parish coffers
.
) in their pursuit of effective migrant immigration. I think we can see what he really meant but I can imagine a large cut of the 20000+ strong Polish community of that diocese choking on their morning coffee. Can't really see it happening either, although I suspect the mother country would like their man back some time . No question about him being a busy bunny though.
I believe they have their own hymnbook in Polish, but again I think that a separate mass for a specific language group, while a sign of church support, does nothing for integration. I guess it all depends on your reasons for being in another country - to set up your home there, or for better work/pay opportunities?. A lot if not all, of our Filipino nurses are here to earn good wages, most of which goes straight back home. I've heard several hushed treasurer-type opinions to the effect that immigration may be good for making churches look full (even daily services suddenly looking worthy), but do nothing for parish coffers
.
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nazard
- Posts: 555
- Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:08 am
- Parish / Diocese: Clifton
- Location: Muddiest Somerset
This discussion is getting a little silly. Surely, the point is that if we all did what the Vatican Council and the CDW tell us to do, and sing enough simple latin to keep the congregations familiar with it, then the migrants who come here would come across something they know and feel at home once in a while. Because of the Babel in the world, there are always going to be language problems. At least using latin doesn't have the political problems which could come from picking a living language.
Anyone who isn't satisfied with reading translations can always learn some latin. It isn't a secret. The grammar of church latin is a lot simpler than classical latin, and the vocabulary quite small. It also frees you from the dreadful english we have at the moment.
My own children and their friends have always been excited when they hear a bit of latin chant, particularly Gloria VIII. Go on, be a devil, make it your gloria for this easter season, and perhaps pax in terra will arrive.
Nazard, qui homo bonae voluntatis est.
Anyone who isn't satisfied with reading translations can always learn some latin. It isn't a secret. The grammar of church latin is a lot simpler than classical latin, and the vocabulary quite small. It also frees you from the dreadful english we have at the moment.
My own children and their friends have always been excited when they hear a bit of latin chant, particularly Gloria VIII. Go on, be a devil, make it your gloria for this easter season, and perhaps pax in terra will arrive.
Nazard, qui homo bonae voluntatis est.
