"Good" songs

[presbyter]

the additional criterion has been added as 'move one to prayer'.......but I get the impression that Presbyter really means inward, personal 'deep' prayer.

Oh I do - "full conscious and active participation" - but praise is but one form of prayer.

ALTAR

A - Adoration
L - Love
T - Thanksgiving and praise
A - Asking - Petition
R - Repentance - Sorrow for sin - turning away from sin - living New Life in Christ

It's all prayer! Question is, does the music assist you to pray in the appropriate way. For example, useful as the Salazaar/Inwood or Anderson refrain/paraphrased settings of the Glory to God might be, do they really do justice to the text? There are three chunks: Praise - Petition - Praise. Is it appropriate to set the central section in the same manner as the outer two? (I just raise the question.)

[presbyter]

unworthiness of using High Art music for the mass

Only if it becomes art for art's sake. If it truly does the job of engaging the listener in "full, conscious and active" participation in the prayer of the Liturgy, that's fine. But then what works for me might not work for others. I can pray the texts of the Liturgy through listening to the Stravinsky Mass, for example (not that I'll ever hear it "live" during Mass). I consider it a fine composition. But I also know plenty of folk who would consider it just a noise and anything but prayer.

[presbyter]

Perhaps the criteria for a good hymn should emerge partly from the hymns that ordinary people love to sing.

Hmmmmm - I'll grant you partly pews2 but we could be swamped with gushing sentimentality or even heterodoxy.

[presbyter]

Vivaldi etc are based on liturgical texts, but are now only viewed as 'performances' by orchestra and/or choir (were they ever used in a mass?)

I think we have to remember that for many centuries the music of the Mass had lost its connection with the rite. The Mass and its music went on simultaneously but often without their necessary connection. Thus, to take a plainsong example, even in 1960 the parish choir would sing the Introit but the celebrant still had to say it! The Sanctus/Benedictus covered the almost silent Eucharistic Prayer. I'll try to find some concrete examples - but the Missa Brevis choral settings in vogue in the 18th century - just a Kyrie and a Gloria - would be sung by the choir while the priest at the altar just got on with Mass. Yes, Vivaldi was sung but probably at or during Mass but not as an itegral part of the rite.

[sidvicius]

Agreed.

[presbyter]

Vivaldi was sung but probably at or during Mass but not as an itegral part of the rite.

I'm now wondering what went on at the altar in Vienna and Salzburg while Haydn and Mozart Agnus Dei were being sung. In the 1570 Missal, the Lamb of God had lost its connection with the Breaking of Bread. Composers produced very beautiful arias for the Agnus and ended them with great choral, contrapuntal flourishes and mighty emphatic perfect cadences at Dona nobis pacem. Now what was the priest doing? He had broken the host before the music started and he himself would probably be the only person to receive Communion. (And if you're in middle age like me, remember that if, after fasting from midnight, we had the residual strength to go to Communion around noon and had not fainted, we were treated as if we were sick and housebound. The Missal of Pius V solved the "problem" of the faithful coming to communion by inserting the rite of Communion for the Sick in the Mass. That's why the server turned round and if anyone was approaching the altar, we prayed the Confiteor again.)

Haydn, Mozart - definitely good music qua music. But their Agnus Dei must just have covered the action of the priest's communion and then the purification of the vessels and the post-communion prayer - emphatic final cadence - it's all over - Ite Missa est - we can go home now. (I wonder if the music covered the last Gospel as well?) Dona nobis pacem must have seemed like the final chorus of an opera or oratorio.

[sidvicius]

Yes. Looking back at Presbyter's query on P2,

Perhaps "goodness" need not be judged through the achievement of high marks in all the suggested criteria? Discuss - please!

here's a thought: you know when in some journal reviews the hack is going on about why they like/hate something? At the end they give it a little 'star' rating, usually from 1 to 5, but they also have several criteria, like 'value for money', 'features' etc. Maybe this is what we need here. OK, here's a test: below you'll find a 'top ten' list of songs suggested to me by 'somebody' (not an SSG member). Your task, should you choose to accept it, is to rate any or all the songs by our accepted criteria. No 'half' marks.

1=very poor 2=iffy 3=acceptable 4=good 5=perfect. Zero=liturgically inappropriate, but I hope there won't be any of those.

Purify my Heart - Brian Doerksen
My Jesus, My Saviour - Darlene Zschech
As the Deer - Martin Nystrom
Shepherd Me O God - Marty Haugen
Lay Your Hands - Carey Landry
You Are Mine - David Haas
Almighty Sovereign Lord (Stretch out Your Hand) - Phil Lawson-Johnston
Bread of Life - Jo Boyce/MikeStanley
So Freely - Dave Bilbrough
The Lord is Marching Out in Splendour - Graham Kendrick

I'll leave you to work out the gender, age and liturgical knowledge of the person who submitted the list, but that's not up for debate. Pick a song and Rate it, and don't leave all the work to Presbyter.

[presbyter]

1=very poor 2=iffy 3=acceptable 4=good 5=perfect. Zero=liturgically inappropriate, but I hope there won't be any of those.

Bread of Life - Jo Boyce/MikeStanley

Hmmmmm - well I'll just do a little bit of work then
This Boyce/Stanley piece is indeed very popular (used at the Jubilee 2000 Mass at the NEC, no less) - it should, perhaps, get a 5.

BUT

Sadly it is heterodox and does not reflect Catholic doctrine about the Eucharist. "Is here in bread and wine for me" is not what we believe. That's not transubstantiation, it's consubstantiation. Therefore the piece should, perhaps, get a 0.

The problem is solved if Jo and Mike would change the words to "in form of bread and wine..." Then it might get a 5.

[presbyter]

Sid - you going to start another thread where we can post "These you have loathed"? Lists of "Bad" songs might be fun too.

[pews2]

I am getting worried now. Nearly everyone sings lustily in our church, including one or two who should perhaps sing slightly less loudly. Are these local favourites okay?

Amazing Grace
Be not afraid
Faith of our fathers
Be still for the presence of the Lord
Be thou my vision
Lord of all hopefulness
Shine Jesus shine
Seek ye first
Walk in the light
Will you come and follow me

Perhaps some recent hymns can be recommended as likely to enthuse them even more, while threatening their faith even less.

[sidvicius]

To Presbyter: Thanks for the Overall Mark, although I meant Rate them 0-5 on each of our criteria, then maybe see if some form of averaging can be applied. However, based on 'heterodoxy' (is that the same as 'litugically incorrect'?) then I would guess it is grounds for instant disqualification - a Red Card then, for Bread of Life! I'm not fussed - I've never heard the song!

To Pews2: No surprises in your list. Is the list of generally more modern(-ish) songs the cause of your worry? If you've got a congregation of good singers (you lucky person), isn't it time to stretch them with a little more variation?

Threatening their faith even less? You mean the ones I listed are too challenging??

Songs which threaten my faith (so yes, Pr. - possibly another idea for the SSG melting pot) are songs which provide no challenge at all. "Give me Joy in my Heart" probably tops my list, and naturally, "Go, the Mass is Ended".

It's a good idea though - SSG ought to be able to compile a list of songs that should not be used in the Catholic Mass, explaining why. I will ask the moderator about starting this up.

[presbyter]

'heterodoxy' (is that the same as 'litugically incorrect'?)

Nope. Heterodox = not orthodox i.e. not part of our holy, Catholic and Apostolic faith.

Liturgically incorrect - of course includes all that is heterodox but is much broader. Singing "Holy Virgin, by God's decree..." at the Communion procession would be Liturgically incorrect.

[presbyter]

"Go, the match is ended...." as sung at Anfield

"So light up the fire and let the flame burn....." as sung at the Crematorium

Why are these always quoted as originating within the Archdiocese of Liverpool?

[Peter O.]

Hi guys,
I wonder whether you've looked at the tread title recently? There was a genuine call for people to draw our attention to examples of music which is liturgically useful. I'm locking this thread now so you'll have to start a new one. Might I suggest that you reduce the scope of your discussions so that there is a sense of focus. Eastertide might be a good one - lots of people expend a huge amount of energy planning and preparing for the Triduum but there's 50 days of feasting to come! How about a Psalms for Eastertide thread?