"Good" songs

[presbyter]

Shall we dismiss this criterion then?

Oh I hope not, Dot. Walker's refrain of "Here, O my Lord....." has remained in my memory for years - simple, repetitive prayer - contemplative and through it's repetition, enabling (dare i say even forcing?) the one praying to concentrate and enter deeply into the One of whose presence it speaks.

Mind you, putting that song forward as "good" might show some readers just how long I've been popping into summer schools

[presbyter]

soundness of musical setting i.e. text fits melody, music suits mood of text

Wearing the hat of musicality, perhaps one could possibly shudder at Kendrick's chorus of The Servant King, with its undue emphasis on "to" and "-ing". But one could not deny the pastoral effectiveness of this piece. Perhaps "goodness" need not be judged through the achievement of high marks in all the suggested criteria? Discuss - please!

[Dot]

I think you're spot on, Presbyter. Kendrick's song is jolly effective and well loved, but might not get top prize in a composing competition. I think we have already discussed (under "composing for the liturgy" on this forum) how it is nigh on impossible to draw up a set of criteria to include all the song you might wish to include and exclude all the Room 101 material.

Keep 'em coming, folks.

[pews2]

Perhaps the criteria for a good hymn should emerge partly from the hymns that ordinary people love to sing.

"Abide with me" has been a favourite for generations and will probably remain so. It does not quote a single line of scripture, yet seems sufficiently scriptural to give pause to unbelievers. Few hymns have lines as beautiful as "shine through the gloom and point me to the skies" or "ills have no weight and tears no bitterness" or "swift to its close ebbs out life's little day". "Be thou my vision" and "Amazing grace" seem similarly wonderful. Of more recent hymns, "Shine Jesus shine" seems popular. I imagine there are many learned reasons why hymn-writers do not and perhaps should not emulate such favourites. Still, ignorance can be bliss.

[mcb]

"Abide with me" has been a favourite for generations and will probably remain so. It does not quote a single line of scripture,

(Apart from Luke 24:29, which provides the first line of the hymn and the inspiration for the whole, IIRC.

M.)

[sidvicius]

Ka-Blam! Got 'im. Shot down at only the first post, poor chap. I know how that feels...

Welcome to the forum, Pews2!

In your defence I'll say that my New Jerusalem Bible holds the agreed translation, and nowhere does Lk 24 mention "Abide with me" - though the intimation is there.

In the song's (and MCB's) defence it was written using an earlier Bible (trivia Q: anyone know which one?), and Verse 4 L3 still pretty much holds true to 1 Cor 15:55.

As for me, let's say it's not in my 'Top Ten'. I've never heard anyone manage to drag it out of the mire of despond, despite its steadfast lyric. Fact is, it's a funeral favourite, and probably more non-christian or non-practising people get buried to this one than we could shake a stick at. Thus, on the rare occasions when their non-practising kin also hit the pews, that's the old-time hit they'll all know and mumble along to.

Some friends of mine were recently asked to sing it at a wedding.

Choosing any church music is obviously going to be difficult for people who don't go to church, and in many lineages, this non-practise can go back two generations or more these days.

Pews2's most telling remark is:

Perhaps the criteria for a good hymn should emerge partly from the hymns that ordinary people love to sing.

- (my emphasis). Interesting point: How many regular church-goers can we think of that really give a monkey's about the church doctrine and documentation that is our bread and butter, as ministers, in our efforts to 'get it right'? Not many, I'll wager. No; many if not most of them, "just want to sing some nice songs". 'Liturgically correct' is not a phrase which bothers them unless it is uttered by "that horrid person wot does the music", and who refuses to do 'There is a River' every other sunday, despite requests.

Sadly, this is where things start to fall apart, and the editors are obliged to re-instate 'We are One in the Spirit' (what IS that doing in Laudate???), to the detriment of something more worthy.

With this unhappy thought I sink further into the mire of despond. Won't someone please post me a lifeline?

[mcb]

Ka-Blam! Got 'im.

Yes, quite right, sorry Pews2... If I was less busy I'd be more polite! Welcome anyway.

Martin.

[gwyn]

One whiff of Abide with me, Crimmond, The Old Rugged Cross, How Great Thou Art, or The Day Thou Gavest, Lord; at my requiem and I won't be going to it. This'll be doubly so if anyone reads out that dreadful "Footprints" thing, or the one about "I am the wind, the rain, the sunshine blah-de-blah-blah or worse still, "I have not died I have merely passed through a door, slipped away to another room . . ."

Over my dead bo . . .

Ah!

They'd better not even THINK about using any of them.

[pews2]

Thanks for the welcome and the educative comments. I agree that "Abide with me" would not be much use to me once my earthly life's little day had already ebbed away. However, in life, it seems to me to have the ring of a battle hymn if taken at a lively clip. Perhaps only the battle between *beep* and Chelsea football clubs. Or even the battle against powers and principalities. There is no limit to the imagination of an ignorant person. I like to imagine the banners of the Church Militant unfurled against the worship of passing earthly joys and the prince of this world, as the rabble sing it lustily. Who knows, it might encourage even the heathen to consider the swift ebbing of life's little day. Of course that is no use to the faithful gathered in church, but even most of the faithful are no longer in church these days.

Enough of that. Sorry, I've been doing my best to finish the wine, as they did at Cana.

[Dot]

Bravo, Sid, for restoring the gentle tone I was trying to establish.

Don't retreat from the battle, pews2. Handel quoted 1 Corinthians 15:55, amongst other scriptural things, in "Messiah". And what about the Emmaus link? We're beginning to award it a few points on the scriptural authenticity front. But....it's not the words that make the non-church-goers like to sing it, is it? If it is, they can't possibly sing them with conviction unless they're undergoing conversion in their grief.

On the musical front, if I were to set the word "abide" in the way it is sung in "Abide with me" I am sure I would receive some criticism.

Tell us, Gwyn, what is it about those particular songs you quote in connection with funerals which leaves you with a bad smell? OK, don't go any further with "The old rugged cross" - that speaks for itself. But look at the words of "The day thou gavest" which recalls the perpetual prayer of the Church. Funerial? not necessarily. "O Lord my God" starts soundly with a paraphrase of Psalm 8 (I am point-scoring on its behalf even though I dislike the "Scandinavian melody"). Does Crimmond turn Psalm 23 into a bad rhyme for you, I wonder? Perhaps it does for me, and there are so many better settings.

Here's another one: "Be still my soul" to the tune by Sibelius, a very different Scandinavian melody from the previous one. What do you think of that one?

Final observation:
as I was referring to the words of "Abide with me" I noticed, on the opposite page, a truly appalling song, "Abba Father send your Spirit", which seems to quote Scripture gratuitously but gains no merit by doing so, IMHO.

Get your teeth into all that, mcb!

Dot

[mcb]

Get your teeth into all that, mcb!

Dot : twisted : (sic)

Teeth, moi? I have to have my vegetables mashed up for me.

Hymns are like clothes: repeated use can lead to fading. Or as we linguists might once have said, the information content of a message is inversely proportional to its probability of occurrence. When a hymn is completely predictable in a particular context, the way Abide with me can be, perhaps, for funerals, it ceases to communicate anything. I guess that's how it is for some people (though speaking for myself I find I can get choked up every time over 'Hold thou thy cross before my closing eyes'.) I'll be happy if it's sung at my funeral, anyway, as long as it's not too soon.

We once went carol singing in an old folks' home, and when it came to requests, Abide with me was first on the list. We obliged, and kept straight faces too.

M.

[Benevenio]

Perhaps only the battle between *beep* and Chelsea football clubs...

Just worked out which team it was that got beeped for starting with a rude word... and realised that one of the contributors to this thread supports them.
RoFL... Come on, you Blues!

[mcb]

Just worked out which team it was that got beeped for starting with a rude word... and realised that one of the contributors to this thread supports them

Yep, Gooner and proud, though I'll try to keep it out of this august forum. Unless we win the treble, in which case I reserve the right to bang on about it ad nauseam.

M.

[Dot]

Just to say - if the date of Salford Composers' Group were changed from 10th July to Cup Final day, wouldn't affect anyone's attendance, would it?

[sidvicius]

Presbyter makes some valid points at post4, which I roughly interpret as "There is a time and a place for everything" - even types of song. However, the additional criterion has been added as 'move one to prayer'. My hangup lies in the fact that many acceptable hymns/songs move one to Praise. I suppose you could say praise is just an extrovert form of prayer (see also Benevenio's comments about Foot-tapping in the Thread "Appropriate Musical Style?" (post 2) but I get the impression that Presbyter really means inward, personal 'deep' prayer.

This sort of limits the choice of music. However, if we were to include Praise I can provide Two basic lists, by no means exhaustive:

These sorts of songs move me to personal Prayer:
Centre of My Life - Inwood
We are All one Bread - Haugen
This is what Yahweh asks - McGann
Lord, thy word Abideth - Baker
I am the Vine - Glynn
O Godhead Hid - Aquinas
Peacemakers - Campbell-Carr
Let All mortal Flesh - St James
Jesus, Gentlest Saviour - Faber
Break not the Circle - Kaan

...and these, to extrovert Praise:
Sing, my Soul - White
For all the Saints - Walsham-How
This little Light of Mine - Lees
I Heard the Lord Call my Name - Krieger
Sing of the Lord's Goodness - Sands
There is Power in the Name of Jesus - Richards
I want to Serve the Purpose of God - Altrogge
Come, Praise the Lord - Psalm116/Quinn
I am a New Creation - Bilbrough
Mine Eyes have seen the Glory - Howe

Presbyter also comments on the unworthiness of using High Art music for the mass, and I'm inclined to agree. Many classical pieces by Handel, Bach, Fauré, Vivaldi etc are based on liturgical texts, but are now only viewed as 'performances' by orchestra and/or choir (were they ever used in a mass?).

The modern Catholic mass often suffers by its very catholic nature, particularly when it tries to accommodate the 'Hymn (Victoria?) Sandwich' - the least important musical part of it - but also the bit which ordinary churchgoers have come to know and love in the last 100 years. Sometimes they even participate in it.

We've all heard that dipolar argument:

"I go to this mass 'cause there ain't any singing in it."
"I go to that mass because I like to Sing."

The former are blessed with a dry bread; the latter, with four additional layers of cream and jam. How would either camp feel if forced to go 'by the book' and sing the mass setting alone, I wonder?

Our discussions and lists would become irrelevant to the mass. Hymnals? - a thing of the past; an unfortunate twentieth century anomaly...

In our efforts to attain the 'perfect mass' in the new millenium, maybe we need to be thinking not generally along the lines of what is merely 'good', but 'what music is good for the mass?', because it asserts peoples' inner Christian self to such an extent that they genuinely feel their life is incomplete without what Ned calls their 'dose of vitamin church'?