BBC Radio 3 The Choir

[VML]

Oops has taken the debate in a new direction.
Yes, every culture has its chants, and the human voice is the first musical instrument.

The comments from Nigel belittling simple natural music are a kind of musical snobbery. There is clever discordant music composed to test the musician or impress an examiner, but it is not often conducive to enhancing worship. It is the skill of the best of our current composers to produce music that is simple enough to be accessible, but also dignified and worthy of the greatness of the Mass.

In this discussion, I think what is meant by ‘bad folk music’ is not any of the kinds of examples Oops gives, but such things as all the common parts of the Mass versified and sung to the tune taken from the Joan Baez recording of the English folk song, Geordie. Nothing wrong with the song or the tune but not what is expected now we have had 41 years to produce better Mass settings using the actual words, and we now know it is preferable not to sing the same kind of tune for the penitential Kyrie and the triumphal Sanctus.

Getting back to the thread: Martin Baker does not seem to expect that the congregation has much interest in singing. Chris Walker calls them ‘God’s frozen people.’
We inform our congregation, and tell them regularly that our tiny choir and/or music group is there to support the singing of the whole assembly, not just to perform. (We’re not big enough to give much of a performance anyway.)
When we started singing the psalms some years ago, I was used to folk sessions and sing arounds, and reasoned that the psalms, as ancient songs of praise, should be treated as chorus songs.

I know this programme was about choral music in the Catholic Church in Britain, and as such, it was irrelevant to the average parish that may with luck and occasional hard graft manage one or two choral items a year and very rarely has even one each of the full four voices. But most of us manage to make a joyful noise to praise God.

[mcb]

Nice to meet you, Perry, and welcome to the forum. One word of advice: by the sound of things your medication doesn't mix too well with British water, or something, and you may need to get your doctor to reduce the dose. But do keep dropping by; we'll do our best to work out what you're trying to tell us, and maybe you could use some of Mr Baker's hand signals if the words don't do the trick?

M.

[peregrine]

Hello mcb!!! Very nice to meet you. I do like your icon with that pint of beer, but I'm more of a gin and tonic person myself. Perhaps if you find yourself in the East End sometime I might be able to convert you?!!

Anyway, to be serious, and this IS a serious thread - my, some people are really beginning to lose it aren't they? - there is such joy to be had in church music! Why do we have to be so angry about it? We're meant to be winning souls and we are in a position to do that which is probably the envy of every priest if he really thinks about it. Music is far more powerful than the spoken word. Especially if you turn the volume up!!!

Yours in the pink (gin),

Perry Esterhazy (Mr)

[Merseysider]

...for many years, involved in the Tridentine revival in Medicine Hat...before then setting up the Esterhazy Folk Foundation in Moose Jaw, just west of Regina...I was singing the rosary in Westminster Cathedral...I'm particularly proud of my mass setting which is based on Hey Jude...I remember one lady asking me if she could sing along too, but I said that it was the folk group's business to worry about singing, and she should learn to appreciate the great sound system we'd installed....Let the sound system do all the work, that's what I say

Sitting in the college library laughing out loud. OK I'm gullible. Tell me this is a wind up. Please.... My sides are aching!

[Leeds Cathedral]

In the Catholic church we are deskilled in music. Often less educated as a group, less affluent, less able to afford private music education. Our schools do well in poorer areas but music is not a priority. Church musicians are rare, under valued and confused. Training is limited and unprofessional

Dear SSG members,
Thank you for all your comments. In respect of the pertinent quote above, the following link will be of interest as it represents a musical education project in catholic schools. http://www.bradfordyouthchoir.org/ It is funded by a consortium of catholic schools.
The producer of the programme at BBC Radio3 has asked us for feedback and I will direct him towards this discussion.
Many thanks,
Claudine Tat (Mrs.)

[mcb]

the following link will be of interest as it represents a musical education project in catholic schools... The producer of the programme at BBC Radio3 has asked us for feedback and I will direct him towards this discussion.

Thank you, Claudine (if I may! ). The link looks very interesting. I was even cheered to find that the repertoire includes Taizé (and Les Misérables, but as they say, quandoque bonus dormitat Homerus ). Also The Beatles, but hopefully not the Missa Supra Hey Jude by Esterhaze. I'm not sure the world is yet ready.

Thanks too for pointing Radio 3 in this direction.

Best wishes,
Martin.

[musicus]

Welcome to the forum, Peregrine!

[VML]

On the BBC Songs of Praise School Choir of the Year final on Sunday, two of the six schools were Catholic: Not a bad result, if we're really considered to be generally less good at singing.

The brief was one traditional hymn and one inspirational song.
The junior 'trad' hymns were Shine Jesus shine, Colours of day, and (the Catholic school choice), If I were a butterfly.

Colours of day was singled out for derision in the Catholic Herald article, and it arouses strong feelings.

Yes, children love it precisely because it is simple, even banal. Actually if you had to listen to some of the other stuff that passes for children's hymns, it is far less bad than many of them.

I avoid it where possible but unmusical bridegrooms here keep choosing it as the one hymn to which they can relate.

So how does the BBC judge the music sung in a choir contest? Clearly it is the quality of the singing that matters, and it is OK to choose something that is not too challenging. At least they are singing, and singing well, and with a bit of luck, forming a life long habit.

V

[Merseysider]

Have just had an email from an old school friend, bringing me up to date with her children and telling me "they love 'Moses I Know You're the Man' just as much as we did."

Did we really?

Oh, the shame!

[organist]

Yes indeed Merseysider the shame of it! The kids at the school my children attended loved "Moses, you are the man" too. I wonder why? I don;t think it was ever sung in the parish church, even by the folk group. But I did teach them some traditional hymns too. It was worth enduring the rubbish in order to do that. Is "Colours of day" really suitable for a wedding? I don't think so. But if that is all anyone knows? Bridal couples seem to go for "Morning has broken", "All things bright" and "Lord of all hopefulness". "Praise my soul" and "Now thank we all our God" too.
If we never teach our children great music, we won't have choirs in any church. And most importantly if we don't teach the boys we will not have tenors and basses in the future. There's already a shortage even here in London!

[dmu3tem]

If you are concerned about the quality of music composed for the Catholic Church, why not add some concrete technical suggestions to the thread 'tips for composers'?

Better still, come along to meetings of the composers group - next one at Clifton Cathedral (Oct 14th).

You might also find the first of Alan Smith's articles about composing in the latest issue of Music and Liturgy a useful starting point.

Thomas Muir