I have split this new thread off from the St Paul's Cathedral thread - Musicus (moderator)
Perhaps this might be an appropriate time for me to enter the discussion and (with some trepidation) to make my first post. I have recently been appointed Precentor at Westminster, having been one of the organists for the past two years. For anyone (myself included) who may not be entirely sure as to just what this title entails, in essence it means taking an overview of liturgy and music at the Cathedral, working with the Music Department and Chaplains towards the aim of beautiful and transcendent liturgies. If anyone wishes to arrange a special service at the Cathedral, I assist them in using our facilities in the best way to meet their needs.
I have been fascinated whilst reading the various mentions the Cathedral has had in this forum. In this context, I suppose the first thing to say is that no presentation of liturgy ought ever to consider itself perfect and therefore consigned to a stasis with no thought to development or improvement. Having said that, I stand firmly by what we do, bearing the previous statement in mind.
It may interest some to know that the Celtic Alleluia has and continues to be used at the Cathedral. Although it is not currently on 'high rotate' it has been used as both a Gospel Acclamation and a Processional Antiphon on occasion, across three different regular Masses.
In fact, there are five liturgies over the course of a weekend at which a Cantor leads a fully musical service. Three of these are masses (the others being offices) and each has a different musical character.
The First Mass of Sunday (Saturday evening) is an essentially English Mass with a processional and postcommunion hymn. The Ordinary is sung to an English setting. Visiting choirs often come to sing at this Mass but there is always a strong congregational element to the music. This is deliberately the only regular Mass at the Cathedral which uses hymns.
The midday Mass on Sundays is known as an 'International Mass' and currently uses music from Lourdes. As the congregation at this Mass tends to be truly international in make-up there are two main consequences for the music. 1) Music known almost exclusively to English-speaking Catholics would limit the participation of the majority of the congregation. 2) Language choice is not as simple as defaulting to the vernacular - which to use?
In order to address the first problem outlined above, all the music is simple and takes the form of versicle and response. The Processional takes a latin refrain, often from Taize or similarly inspired, and sets verses from the Propers. The Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus are from Lourdes and all require the congregation to respond with a simple antiphon. The cantor sings the verses in a variety of languages but the antiphons are always in Latin.
The Sunday 5:30pm Mass is a congregational plainsong mass, again led by a cantor. In addition, the Grand Organ comments on the liturgy through improvisation before Mass, before the Gospel Acclamation, at the Offertory, Communion and Recession. Like the midday mass, the processional sets verses from the Proper with a congregational antiphon, this time taken or adapted from the Graduale Simplex. The verses are always in English.
There is no doubt that plainsong settings of the Ordinary are not universally well known. However, we deem it valuable that the Cathedral can act as a resource in helping people become familiar with a limited but varied repertoire of plainsong. Throughout Ordinary Time we use Mass XI for the Kyrie and Gloria. Although the Kyrie is eminently singable, it is true that the Gloria is more difficult. However, this practice had begun before I arrived and upon noticing that the congregation have kept at it and can indeed sing this, I see no reason to remove it from the repertoire. Mass VIII is used on occasion, as is Mass XVIII for Advent and Lent. The Sanctus and Agnus tend always to be from XVIII as these are well known and simple for all to join.
I'm aware that I've provided quite an Epistle here but part of carrying conviction for what we do at Westminster must surely be a willingness to discuss and debate. Westminster Cathedral is, after all, an international focal point.
One final issue I would like to raise is that the Parish facet of our raison d'etre is extremely important but not by any means the main focus. Cathedrals, Westminster in particular, are everybody's parish church and they are nobody's. All are welcome because we do what we do, not to try and include some at the risk of alienating others, but because we believe there is substance in our liturgies which all may appreciate and draw on.
Moreover, having mentioned earlier that we do use the Celtic Alleluia and that plainsong Mass XI is not the only repertoire in use for cantor and congregation, I will finish by pointing out that I think it excellent that so many parishes, some represented by members of SSG and others who post on this forum, are exploring and using all sorts of musical forms in their liturgies. Whatever we choose to use at Westminster must be chosen and used with conviction. It is my conviction that, in the case of our plainsong Mass at least, we are offering something not to be found in the majority of churches, something that is, afterall, part of the musical treasury of the Church. Whereas a great amount of contemporary music is more-or-less ubiquitous, found from parish to parish - again, I stress, not that there's anything wrong with that! I'm sure people choose a Mass at the Cathedral that happens to suit their taste. With 1000 people attending each of the Masses mentioned above (more at the Solemn Choral Mass) you might imagine that we receive some feedback. For the time being at least, and bucking the trend for these things, I can assure you that the majority has been positive.
Westminster Cathedral
Moderators: Dom Perignon, Casimir
Precentor, you are very welcome here. Thank you for such a lucid and open-minded first post. You will, no doubt, have gathered (from various threads here) that the nature of the relationship between a cathedral's music and liturgy and that of its diocese's parishes is an on-going, warmly-discussed question. Perhaps it is one about which you might have something more to say?
musicus - moderator, Liturgy Matters
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Music at Westminster
precentor wrote:Whatever we choose to use at Westminster must be chosen and used with conviction. It is my conviction that, in the case of our plainsong Mass at least, we are offering something not to be found in the majority of churches, something that is, afterall, part of the musical treasury of the Church.
Precentor, I read with interest your comments. As the Director of Music for one of the larger Parishes in Westminster Diocese with a choir of over 60 (volunteers) surely our Cathedral should offer both something 'not to be found in the majority of churches' but also of those found within the Parishes in our Diocese which is so vast and international (as our Cardinal recently pointed out in his recent White Paper). I would be interested to find out what your views are on and the place in which the repotoire used in the Parishes of Westminster which, whether "folk". choral (I'm thinking Gathering Mass, Coventry Acclamations, Mass of Creation) or other have within our Diocese. We use plainsong regularly and is something which I feel very passionate should still be used having grown up and gone to a Catholic School with the strong promotion of plainsong and a love of latin however there is a need for compromise and a need for both.
(Apologies if this seems like a dire tribe).
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organist
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music at westminster
Dear Precentor you are very welcome - may the debate continue! It is so good to have you involved.
For the record the English setting at the Saturday 6 p.m. Mass is St Anne's Mass by James Macmillan. I have a few quibbles about the word setting, use of scotch snaps and pitch but people seem to enjoy singing it.
Members will remember singing this at the AGM Mass last year and at Summer school this year. The Gloria is usually Latin plainchant.
Alas the large congregation don;t sing much in the hymns despite the excellent efforts of the cantors and the organists. As someone who has often sung out in the congregation at the cathedral, it;s such a big place that even a keen singer like me can feel very isolated!
However a change of setting is always welcome for the regulars! A change is as good as a rest!
It would also be fun to have Celtic Alleluia instead of the triple plainchant one!
I'm taking my choir to sing there on September 16th and we are really looking forward to it. And of course the society AGM and lecture day will be very special.
For the record the English setting at the Saturday 6 p.m. Mass is St Anne's Mass by James Macmillan. I have a few quibbles about the word setting, use of scotch snaps and pitch but people seem to enjoy singing it.
Members will remember singing this at the AGM Mass last year and at Summer school this year. The Gloria is usually Latin plainchant.
Alas the large congregation don;t sing much in the hymns despite the excellent efforts of the cantors and the organists. As someone who has often sung out in the congregation at the cathedral, it;s such a big place that even a keen singer like me can feel very isolated!
However a change of setting is always welcome for the regulars! A change is as good as a rest!
It would also be fun to have Celtic Alleluia instead of the triple plainchant one!
I'm taking my choir to sing there on September 16th and we are really looking forward to it. And of course the society AGM and lecture day will be very special.
Let me add a belated welcome, Precentor, and thanks too for that thoughtful and persuasive first post. I very much enjoyed the conference of musical directors at Westminster Cathedral earlier in the year, especially the excellent talk by James O'Donnell in which he argued for a pluralism in which musical forms and styles are tailored to the needs of particular communities (and particular buildings). This was a refreshing and reassuring counterbalance to views that were occasionally expressed during the day, mostly from the floor, that seemed to be arguing for a much more restrictive view of what may legitimately be considered sacred music; and not always, I thought, arguing from a particularly well-informed standpoint. But I made enough grumpy ripostes during the day to make clear my own impatience with that point of view. 
I was equally reassured and genuinely impressed by the celebration of vespers at the Cathedral. This was a truly successful participatory liturgy, with the congregation heartily embracing their role in chanting the psalms and so on. It reassured me that musical excellence and congregational participation aren't alternatives; and made me realise how much the space dictates what you can do musically - a participatory vespers probably wouldn't have worked in the cavernous space of the main body of the Cathedral, but in the confines of the Lady Chapel it was a very effective and successful celebration. Congratulations, and keep on sharing your views here.
M.
I was equally reassured and genuinely impressed by the celebration of vespers at the Cathedral. This was a truly successful participatory liturgy, with the congregation heartily embracing their role in chanting the psalms and so on. It reassured me that musical excellence and congregational participation aren't alternatives; and made me realise how much the space dictates what you can do musically - a participatory vespers probably wouldn't have worked in the cavernous space of the main body of the Cathedral, but in the confines of the Lady Chapel it was a very effective and successful celebration. Congratulations, and keep on sharing your views here.
M.
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gwyn
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Croeso Precentor.
I was at Morning Prayer in the Lady Chapel on The Feast of The Transfiguration recently. It was a prayerful delight. Cantor & organist led with full participation.
The 10.30 Choral Mass was sung by the cathedral special choir since the regulars were on holiday. While participation in song wasn't really possible I did not feel by any means excluded from the oneness.
I indilged myself and stayed for the Midday Mass - cantor and organist led and, like Morning Prayer, with good assembly participation.
My favourite part is when the kneelers get slammed down just after the Sanctus. Now there'sfull participiation of the assembly in making a joyful noise!
I was at Morning Prayer in the Lady Chapel on The Feast of The Transfiguration recently. It was a prayerful delight. Cantor & organist led with full participation.
The 10.30 Choral Mass was sung by the cathedral special choir since the regulars were on holiday. While participation in song wasn't really possible I did not feel by any means excluded from the oneness.
I indilged myself and stayed for the Midday Mass - cantor and organist led and, like Morning Prayer, with good assembly participation.
My favourite part is when the kneelers get slammed down just after the Sanctus. Now there'sfull participiation of the assembly in making a joyful noise!
Hello again to all and thanks for the replies. Musicus, you are of course correct that the nature of the relationship between a cathedral's music and liturgy and that of its diocesan parishes is warmly discussed. And yes, I do have something to say on this but I will explore a different forum for doing this. What I will venture at this point is a quote from Mgr Mark Langham, Administrator of Westminster Cathedral, about the nature of Cathedrals.
"In a special way, Cathedrals are liminal - that is, thresholds between the sacred and the secular, places where people are lifted from their daily experiences to contemplate the sphere of the divine. Cathedrals intrude into a busy and material world, stamping it with the mark of something grander. Their size and their age take them beyond the ephemeral, attention-grabbing urgency of modern life. They put God in your face."
Parish churches often have a somewhat different calling, which is not to say that some cannot achieve the sorts of effects described by Fr Mark. However, there is a lot of the 'here and now' about Parish life and worship. Parishes are (or ought to be) close communities and parish ministry is able to be quite specific to the community which it serves. As I've previously said, there ought not to be a specificity about Cathedral worship. I know I'm walking on egg shells here, but I'd go as far as to offer a comparison with a family meal at home with all the wonderful things this can entail, as opposed to a formal dinner away from home which is special for different reasons.
I'm not quite sure what you're asking johnmac. but I assure you that I know that works such as the Gathering Mass, Coventry Acclamations and Mass of Creation which you cite are well used and popular within the diocese. What I don't accept is that use throughout the Diocese is, in itself, a reason to adopt music, or for that matter, liturgical practice, at the Cathedral. We offer what we do because we believe it best fulfills our liturgical aims whilst accepting there is always room for improvement!
I'll just throw this in... as we all know, the new translation of the missal will be upon us in the not too distant future, at which point all current musical settings of the Ordinary will have to be adapted (quite seriously in the case of the Gloria) or replaced.
Hello mcb - it was good to meet you at the Conference of Catholic Directors of Music and I'm glad you got so much out of the day. We are in the process of arranging the next event. I'm also glad that you mentioned Vespers as this has been my pet project over the last few months, developing our congregational office. Saturday Vespers is completely in English (except for the Marian Antiphon at the end). The psalms are chanted by cantor and congregation. We have recently started singing the antiphons as well which, in my opinion, has made a vast improvement to the Office. An interesting experiment has been singing the complete latin Sunday Vespers with cantor and congregation whilst the choir has been away. It is amazing how people seem to pick up the plainsong melodies - especially the Cathedral Chaplains who are now singing lustily!
Thanks for your comments too Gwyn. I'm glad you visited the Cathedral and especially that the choir singing the Ordinary did not make you feel excluded from the worshiping community. Of course, the congregation does sing the Credo and, most importantly in my opinion, the various dialogues between celebrant and congregation. The essence of a 'sung mass' is not the choir, the organ, hymns or songs, but the sung dialogue that is set up from 'In the name of the Father...'. This is part of the liminality of Cathedrals. We sing these responses whereas they might be spoken elsewhere because it lifts them out of the everyday.
You're right edbowie - the cantors are heroes and much more is asked of them musically these days than in the past. I'm looking at ways to develop their role and increase their number.
One last thought for consideration - part of my job is outreach and I'm quite keen to start by offering a kind of catechesis for listening to and praying with sacred music. It's one thing for us to say that people can pray by listening but its not obvious to everyone. There are many ways into music however - I guess I'm imagining a kind of music appreciation course but with spirituality running alongside. Any thoughts??
"In a special way, Cathedrals are liminal - that is, thresholds between the sacred and the secular, places where people are lifted from their daily experiences to contemplate the sphere of the divine. Cathedrals intrude into a busy and material world, stamping it with the mark of something grander. Their size and their age take them beyond the ephemeral, attention-grabbing urgency of modern life. They put God in your face."
Parish churches often have a somewhat different calling, which is not to say that some cannot achieve the sorts of effects described by Fr Mark. However, there is a lot of the 'here and now' about Parish life and worship. Parishes are (or ought to be) close communities and parish ministry is able to be quite specific to the community which it serves. As I've previously said, there ought not to be a specificity about Cathedral worship. I know I'm walking on egg shells here, but I'd go as far as to offer a comparison with a family meal at home with all the wonderful things this can entail, as opposed to a formal dinner away from home which is special for different reasons.
I'm not quite sure what you're asking johnmac. but I assure you that I know that works such as the Gathering Mass, Coventry Acclamations and Mass of Creation which you cite are well used and popular within the diocese. What I don't accept is that use throughout the Diocese is, in itself, a reason to adopt music, or for that matter, liturgical practice, at the Cathedral. We offer what we do because we believe it best fulfills our liturgical aims whilst accepting there is always room for improvement!
I'll just throw this in... as we all know, the new translation of the missal will be upon us in the not too distant future, at which point all current musical settings of the Ordinary will have to be adapted (quite seriously in the case of the Gloria) or replaced.
Hello mcb - it was good to meet you at the Conference of Catholic Directors of Music and I'm glad you got so much out of the day. We are in the process of arranging the next event. I'm also glad that you mentioned Vespers as this has been my pet project over the last few months, developing our congregational office. Saturday Vespers is completely in English (except for the Marian Antiphon at the end). The psalms are chanted by cantor and congregation. We have recently started singing the antiphons as well which, in my opinion, has made a vast improvement to the Office. An interesting experiment has been singing the complete latin Sunday Vespers with cantor and congregation whilst the choir has been away. It is amazing how people seem to pick up the plainsong melodies - especially the Cathedral Chaplains who are now singing lustily!
Thanks for your comments too Gwyn. I'm glad you visited the Cathedral and especially that the choir singing the Ordinary did not make you feel excluded from the worshiping community. Of course, the congregation does sing the Credo and, most importantly in my opinion, the various dialogues between celebrant and congregation. The essence of a 'sung mass' is not the choir, the organ, hymns or songs, but the sung dialogue that is set up from 'In the name of the Father...'. This is part of the liminality of Cathedrals. We sing these responses whereas they might be spoken elsewhere because it lifts them out of the everyday.
You're right edbowie - the cantors are heroes and much more is asked of them musically these days than in the past. I'm looking at ways to develop their role and increase their number.
One last thought for consideration - part of my job is outreach and I'm quite keen to start by offering a kind of catechesis for listening to and praying with sacred music. It's one thing for us to say that people can pray by listening but its not obvious to everyone. There are many ways into music however - I guess I'm imagining a kind of music appreciation course but with spirituality running alongside. Any thoughts??
precentor wrote:...a kind of music appreciation course but with spirituality running alongside. Any thoughts??
One word, Precentor: podcast! This could really be something original and distinctive, and doing it in a technologically innovative way, and beating the drum about it, would be a great way to garner publicity for what sounds like a truly worthy venture.
M.
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presbyter
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Ah - now I'm in the right building - with the new mosaics in the chapel on the left hand side (that blue - so intense) I can plug this (heard a track on Classic FM) - very good - so I bought the CD
Anerio Requiem Mass and Motets Requiem
RECORD LABEL: Hyperion Helios
FORMAT: CD
PRICE: £ 5.99 including VAT, or £ 5.10 excluding VAT
RELEASE DATE: 27-Feb-2006
COMPOSER: Giovanni Francesco Anerio (other composers in brackets after works)
TITLE: Requiem and Motets
TRACKS: Requiem - Missa pro Defunctis (Giovanni Anerio). Vidi speciosam. Ad te levavi. Christe Redemptor omnium. Christus factus est. Ad te levavi. Salve Regina III. Magnificat quinti toni (Felice Anerio).
CONDUCTOR: James O'Donnell
ARTISTS: Westminster Cathedral Choir
Wonderful recording and at £5.99 - well!
Mind you - I think I have better mosaics.
- so I bought the CD
Anerio Requiem Mass and Motets Requiem
RECORD LABEL: Hyperion Helios
FORMAT: CD
PRICE: £ 5.99 including VAT, or £ 5.10 excluding VAT
RELEASE DATE: 27-Feb-2006
COMPOSER: Giovanni Francesco Anerio (other composers in brackets after works)
TITLE: Requiem and Motets
TRACKS: Requiem - Missa pro Defunctis (Giovanni Anerio). Vidi speciosam. Ad te levavi. Christe Redemptor omnium. Christus factus est. Ad te levavi. Salve Regina III. Magnificat quinti toni (Felice Anerio).
CONDUCTOR: James O'Donnell
ARTISTS: Westminster Cathedral Choir
Wonderful recording and at £5.99 - well!
Mind you - I think I have better mosaics.
Thank-you so much, precentor, for your contribution to the debate. It is worthy of a thread in its own right.
I often read the Forum with a sense of frustration and feel very wound up by what contributors are saying. Your comments, and the response they have received, leave me with a feeling of serenity for a change! I hope that we can agree to be different, to be eclectic in our use of music and not go on trying to dictate what others should do (whilst keeping an ear open to what Rome is saying, and not trying to tell them they are right or wrong either). The response of our assemblies to our music is a voice that should be heard! (Double entendre entirely unintentional)
dot
I often read the Forum with a sense of frustration and feel very wound up by what contributors are saying. Your comments, and the response they have received, leave me with a feeling of serenity for a change! I hope that we can agree to be different, to be eclectic in our use of music and not go on trying to dictate what others should do (whilst keeping an ear open to what Rome is saying, and not trying to tell them they are right or wrong either). The response of our assemblies to our music is a voice that should be heard! (Double entendre entirely unintentional)
dot
I think if there is one service that Precentor has doen in his posts is to remind us of the sheer depth and breadth of the music sung at WC and in the church in general.
As an outsider (Anglican Conservative Evangelical) looking in, I particularly value the rhythms of the liturgical seasons and the observance of feasts and memorias. I love the music in the cathedral. From the improvised flourish that precedes the gospel acclamations at the 1730 Sunday Mass to the Regina Caeli that concludes Eastertide Vespers even though I am not theologically at one with the latter.
If I do bat for the Inwood/Walker repertoire its because I do believe it has a place in a cathedral context. Clifton manages to accommodate plainsong, Inwood and Schubert at its Sunday Solemn mass. The contemporary repertoire in the RC church is thoughtful and sensitive compared to much of the lamentable, bland nonsense sung in evangelical circles.
What does make Westminster different is geography. Unlike Liverpool and Clifton there is no sense of light nor of gathering round the altar. The sanctuary contains two altars (Apparently a no-no) and unless you are at the front of the nave you can be some distance from the liturgical action.
There is no obvious solution to this.
Finally, I hope, precentor, you will continue to keep us up to speed with the good work that you are doing at the cathedral. I suppose we would also do well to remember that liturgy is not an end in itself but only in the service of worshiping 'the Word made flesh'.
As an outsider (Anglican Conservative Evangelical) looking in, I particularly value the rhythms of the liturgical seasons and the observance of feasts and memorias. I love the music in the cathedral. From the improvised flourish that precedes the gospel acclamations at the 1730 Sunday Mass to the Regina Caeli that concludes Eastertide Vespers even though I am not theologically at one with the latter.
If I do bat for the Inwood/Walker repertoire its because I do believe it has a place in a cathedral context. Clifton manages to accommodate plainsong, Inwood and Schubert at its Sunday Solemn mass. The contemporary repertoire in the RC church is thoughtful and sensitive compared to much of the lamentable, bland nonsense sung in evangelical circles.
What does make Westminster different is geography. Unlike Liverpool and Clifton there is no sense of light nor of gathering round the altar. The sanctuary contains two altars (Apparently a no-no) and unless you are at the front of the nave you can be some distance from the liturgical action.
There is no obvious solution to this.
Finally, I hope, precentor, you will continue to keep us up to speed with the good work that you are doing at the cathedral. I suppose we would also do well to remember that liturgy is not an end in itself but only in the service of worshiping 'the Word made flesh'.
precentor wrote:I'd go as far as to offer a comparison with a family meal at home with all the wonderful things this can entail, as opposed to a formal dinner away from home which is special for different reasons.
I don't know that I'd subscribe to this. What you describe - the experience of liturgy as a special trip "out" from home - maybe applies better to oratories, basilicas and the like: places where the liturgy is in a sense more an end in itself than an activity properly embedded in and emerging from the life of a particular community. Cathedrals do serve a particular community: it's just a larger one - the diocese - than that attached to a parish church. That seems to me to be an important part of what cathedral liturgy should embody, namely the cathedral's mission as "mother church" for the diocese.
This means that part of what the cathedral has to do is offer leadership. If the cathedral doesn't provide (among the many aspects of its liturgical life) a good model for parish worship, then in all probability this will simply be lacking from the liturgical life of the diocese. Or is there another potential source?
I think this is an issue for the Church today in a way it might not have been in the past. In past times our understanding of liturgical culture was more monolithic than the pluralism that might nowadays be counted as a healthy sign of liturgical life in a parish/cathedral/diocese/etc. So the cathedral in the past did perhaps serve as a model, albeit a rather remote one. Nowadays the diversity of liturgical and musical forms and styles is as diverse as the communities that make up a particular church. But without good models and effective leadership, diversity degenerates into anarchy and experiment, or mediocrity and indifference.
So I'd suggest a different analogy from your image of 'eating out', which I'd say colours the way we do things at Salford: cathedral liturgy can be like going round for dinner at your mum's, to see how it should be done.
M.