Latin II

[musicus]

I have read today the address given by then then Cardinal Ratzinger on the occasion of the retirement of his brother from the directorship of music at Regensburg Cathedral. The Cardinal's defence of his brother's illicit 30 year practice of shifting the sung Agnus Dei from its "proper" place is a joy to read and is an object lesson in how to interpret and apply liturgical law.

Is that available on the Internet? It would be an interesting read.

[presbyter]

A report of some of the then Cardinal's views on Church Music can be read here

http://www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals ... iller.html

and another summary can be found in Francis Mannion's Masterworks of God - Essays in Liturgical Theory and Practice (Hillenbrand Books, 2004)

IMHO, these summaries are inadequate tools with which to try and grasp the depth of the theology expressed. Much better to read the man himself (and he is very readable)

A New Song for the Lord - Crossroad Publishing, 1996 - is available in paperback and its new cover (2005) could give the erroneus impression that there is something of authoritative Papal teaching therein (Pope Benedict XVI in bold and gold majuscule followed by a photograph).

It is only a book of spiritual and theological reflection and should be read as such. Read it without any preconceived agenda and without any hint of partisanship.

Somewhat wild press reports about our Pope's intentions to ban guitars in church will then be seen for what they are - sensationalism. For example, in questioning certain aspects of the effects of rock music and its suitability for liturgical use, all that is being said has been said before by figures such as St Augustine and St Jerome in the context of their time and place and the theological problems they were encountering.

Anyway, I commend the book rather than reports/summaries about it.

[musicus]

Thanks. Amazon do the book at £9.41.

[John Ainslie]

May I sound a note of caution on reading Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger's sayings on liturgical music too selectively. 'A New Song for the Lord' is a collection of articles written over many years for distinct occasions: in the case of the most quoted article on liturgical music, 'In the Presence of the Angels', for the retirement of his brother as cathedral choirmaster at Regensburg.

For his more systematic treatment of liturgical music, see 'A Feast of Faith' (Ignatius Press: ISBN 0-89870-056-6), especially the chapter 'On the theological basis of church music'. In fact, it appears that he wrote a whole book on 'Theologische Probleme der Kirchenmusik' (Rottenburg 1978), but I have been unable to trace it. See also the chapter on music in his 1999 book, 'The Spirit of the Liturgy' (Ignatius Press: ISBN 0-89870-784-6).

Briefly, he was (and presumably still is) well aware of the "tension between the demands of art and the simplicity of the liturgy", as he puts it. He concedes that "relations between theology and church music have always been somewhat cool".

It would seem that the controversies raised in this thread and elsewhere are par for the course and ones of which Pope Benedict is well aware...

[Mancunian]

I must apologize for my delay in thanking Merseysider for his charitable reply to my somewhat curmudgeonly post a few days ago.

I certainly had no right to presume to know his own musical preferences, and I envy his ability to sing the contents of the Liber Usualis in his woodshed - would that I had the expertise (and the woodshed) to do so myself.

As for my pen name - perhaps 'Former Mancunian' as I use in another forum would have been more appropriate. Born and bred in Greater Manchester, I still can't think of myself as anything else, and certainly not a Nottinghamian, even though it's over thirty years since I left Manchester to go to college and I've lived here in Nottingham for over ten years now.

However, I'm still somewhat uncomfortable at the idea of cathedrals having an obligation to 'set an example' to parishes. When there was more uniformity of worship, and both parish churches and cathedrals were aspiring to produce something broadly similar, then this may have made sense (although there may inevitably have been differences between aspiration and reality depending on local preferences and available resources). However, I wonder whether this is any longer the case. Styles of worship vary so much that I doubt whether some parishes would be influenced in any way by what a cathedral might do. (Indeed I suspect that some would be antagonistic to the idea that they might have anything to learn from elsewhere. It sometimes appears that any suggestion of attempting to raise musical or liturgical standards automatically implies that the person suggesting the improvement is more interested in peripheral matters than true faith (the old 'you are only here for the music' allegation).

My other objection is pragmatic. Cathedrals may have resources that are simply not available at parish level. There is little point in setting an example that could not be followed, yet for a cathedral to concentrate on doing what could realistically be achieved by most parishes may mean wasting the opportunity to use those resources for the greater glory of God.

My knowledge of what goes on at Nottingham is limited to one particular service - like many who attend a place of worship that has several services I know little of what goes on at services other than that I attend each week. I am told by friends who sometimes attend other services that they correspond more closely to the parish model. However, I feel better able to worship with the Latin, plainsong and polyphony on Sunday morning at 11:15, and I'm sticking to it, even if the congregation do not join in everything on Merseysider's list. I suspect that many who attend the same service are of a similar opinion.

Finally, pragmatism also governs my views on choir lofts. Other things being equal, I agree that it's better for the choir not be separated from the rest of the congregation by being up in a loft. However, other issues (ability for the choir to see the altar, to have somewhere to put their music, to have room to stand correctly to sing, and the acoustics of the building) may mean that the loft is the best solution in practice in a particular case.

Mancunian

[Merseysider]

I must apologize for my delay in thanking Merseysider for his charitable reply to my somewhat curmudgeonly post a few days ago.

Dear Mancunian, There is no need to apologise – I expect we are all both charitable and curmudgeonly on here at times. The problem is that it's so difficult to hear the tone of writing – if you see what I mean. I'm sure that if you and I were sitting in a pub together the debate would get heated but would be frequently cooled down by the next round of drinks.

I am probably far too set in my ways and not too good at moving with the times – if I'm honest, I don't want to. My parish priest recently described me as "an awkward git". And he's right – but he did admit that I've developed a singing assembly in a parish which had no music for several years.

Don't be fooled, I can't sing all of Liber Usualis – only bits – and it sounds better in the woodshed aided by paint stripper and tonic.

Seriously – yes, I'm stuck in my ways but I'm wary of leaving them behind – I've seen them work in several parishes.

Now, does anyone know a dance class where I can learn the Turkey Trot and the Bunny Hug – I'm quite serious – these classics seemed to disappear after the first world war and I'd love to see them revived.

[Benevenio]

Just back from a holiday in France, including overnighting at a new Formule 1 hotel in Reims (budget - £60 for 6 people for 1 night, inc breakfast). Disconcertingly, the toilet/shower block was playing muzak. It played Ride of the Valkyrieswhilst in the shower; we were accompanied by Winter Wonderland and Silent Night in the morning; and it was all rounded off by a plainchant Agnus Dei whilst in the loo just before departure. I suspect that Latin Mass is never going to seem the same from now on…

[musicus]

I'm trying to work out if that music was themed.

[presbyter]

May I sound a note of caution on reading Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger's sayings on liturgical music too selectively.......... 'In the Presence of the Angels', for the retirement of his brother as cathedral choirmaster at Regensburg.

Oh I totally agree John - and, IMHO, the retirement address is not the best article in the book.
Read the whole thing and also the Ignatius Press ones too, one of which I do not possess..............yet.

[presbyter]

However, in this case, other readers might note that such results were only achieved in the context of compulsory weekly practices conducted in a ruthlessly efficient - and highly impressive - manner.

Memories of doing the same in a different establishment - don't know about the ruthlessly efficient and highly impressive bit though - ha! It got me out of the tedious staff meetings - I looked after the school while jaws were exercised. If it's of any interest to anyone, the tradition I was carrying on was that which had gripped the young Crichton when he was a pupil there...... but "there" is no longer and that's another story.

[presbyter]

Mention Latin to the older people in our parish and they look as though they've just sucked a lemon ? they remember it from last time.

But do they not love Benediction - and O Salutaris, Tantum Ergo and Adoremus in aeternam? (This is a completely different question to 'do they understand what they are singing about if they sing O Saultaris..... ?') I only ask because there are a lot of "oldies" who do.

[presbyter]

OK - here's the fundamental question - does what happened in the past have any value now, given the "agenda" of Vatican II which is Aggiornamento? Discuss.

(Anyone who might like to draw a parallel between the continuity/discontinuity of the OT and NT - and perhaps even Jesus' attitude to the Law of Moses - would be interesting to read.)