Use of Latin

[Benevenio]

Isn't our liturgical language (English or Latin) an intimate dialogue between lovers?

Which leaves us to wonder what our priests really know about that subject…

If I use the phrase "My heart bleeds for you", for example, we all know that is not to be taken literally but we do know what it means.

Round these parts, I would take it to mean a particularly sarcastic "Quite frankly, I don't give a *beep*"… [Wonderful! Gone with the Wind is censored!]

(Well, one could apply it literally to Christ's crucifixion.)

Hands… feet… side… heart?

Like Dot (a rare moment!), I question just why using - or even suggesting we use - Latin inflames things. And, like Reginald elsewhere on this forum, the choir in our parish uses a wide variety of music, from chant in Latin through Taizé in Spanish, French etc, through Big Band, 4-square hymnody, 4-part Tallis, 'world' music and so on. Good musical settings of good texts in any language speak to us on many levels, literally, figuratively, emotionally, spiritually. It is as important not to loose sight of heritage as much as it is to sing a new song to the Lord.

When asked by the younger members of the choir why we are singing in Latin, I reply "because God is not English…"

[asb]

When asked by the younger members of the choir why we are singing in Latin, I reply "because God is not English…"

Oh yes! i love it - thanks. I'll try that with my congregation next time someone moans (and that'll be next Sunday probably)

As for, er.... younger choir members.......... erm, sorry; could you explain the meaning of that phrase please? I think I knew what it meant once, but.......................

[contrabordun]

Technically, it means he has a choir of at least three people. They could be aged 87, 85 and 83...

[Benevenio]

Actually, we have 8 or 9 people under 20, and about the same number over that age.

[contrabordun]

and when I posted, I was hoping that asb wasn't going to get all confused by the word "three" in the context of choir membership

[asb]

No, but it does happen - after all, I messed up the "quote" a few posts back!!

fixed.
Admin

[Dot]

Like Dot (a rare moment!)

Not as rare as you're making out, Benevenio.

Good musical settings of good texts in any language speak to us on many levels, literally, figuratively, emotionally, spiritually. It is as important not to lose sight of heritage as much as it is to sing a new song to the Lord.

Read my post on P2, and you'll see I am much in agreement with this, in fact you have put into words more succinctly than I what I was wishing to say.

Dot

[presbyter]

My third thought is by way of comparison. Consider what we sang in our parish during Communion at Mass on Sunday: Taizé ?O Christe Domine Jesu.?...................the ostinato was effective and covered the action of the Communion procession. When the cantor sang the words of Psalm 22 and 33 (and perhaps 24 and 84 too ? I didn?t take them in) they were familiar but they didn?t ?speak? as they do in (to my mind, better) settings we employ as Responsorial Psalms

So my next question on the use of Latin has to be - does a macaronic mélange work as prayer? Perhaps Dot is saying that for the Communion procession, repetition of the ostinato would be enough and the superimposed psalm texts are superfluous? But what might happen if during the Psalm verses, the ostinato became wordless and a pianissimo hum?

I suppose I'm really asking what is going on in the mind and heart of our Clapham-omnibus-person as he/she moves in procession to receive Communion. Is the Latin ostinato moving/disposing him/her to reverent reception of the sacrament? Is it performing a cognitive/didactic/catechetical function - this really is our Lord Jesus Christ? Is it acting more at an emotional level? (cf John 21:7) Even, is the marriage of "mysterious" Latin to musical mantra causal in effecting a feeling of deep religious experience; that mysterium tremendum et fascinans? Perhaps some method of asking could be devised.

[Sonoqui]

I suppose I'm really asking what is going on in the mind and heart of our Clapham-omnibus-person as he/she moves in procession to receive Communion. Is the Latin ostinato moving/disposing him/her to reverent reception of the sacrament?

Speaking as a Clapham-omnibus-person............

Although I did not hear the particular piece that Dot referred to (I go to a different Mass), when the choir sing at 'my' Mass, they have taken to starting the Communion music (chant or whatever) as soon as the priest has received Holy Communion.

I must say that I find it highly conducive to the reverent reception of the sacrament. Yes, these chants can be emotional but they are also soothing and by the time I reach the front of the queue my mind is totally focused on what I am about to receive.

On a more prosaic level, it also seems to have stopped certain old biddies in our congregation from discussing the price of sprouts (amongst many other riveting topics) as they process to the Altar - and that can't be a bad thing!

[Dot]

A macaronic mélange can work perfectly well. It wasn't so much that the ostinato was getting in the way of the verses, and we had been instructed to hum during the verses (though we didn't because we don't all listen to instructions). After a while, the cantor directed a decrescendo just before he came in with the next verse. No, it wasn't that, it was the setting of the verses themselves. At one point the word emphasis was so strange that it made me go out of synch. with the cantor because I could no longer feel the pulse correctly. For me, as part of the choir, it distracted from rather than supported the text. Read (or, better, sing) the Berthier text in time to the music, hemmed in by a rigid 3 in a bar pulse (CfE 519) then read the Gelineau (CfE 502) in a similar way.

I am glad that Sonoqui feels the new arrangement of singing/chanting throughout Communion is working, because that was the impression we were getting - perhaps encouraging a little more participation from memory than if we were to strike up half way through. The comment she makes on how the music affects her is significant even if the cognitive/didactic/catechetical function is almost non-existent. Include all the levels at which music can work (literal, figurative, emotional, spiritual - Benevenio above).

I was encouraged to see the qustionnaires put out to parishes and schools by the Birmingham Archdiocese music committee, canvassing views on current practice in use of music for the Mass. As for getting a meaningful reaction from our congregations - an interesting proposal - can anyone think of the right questions to ask?

Dot

[Sonoqui]

........ even if the cognitive/didactic/catechetical function is almost non-existent.

Dot, this function may or may not be non-existent in me. Don't know. Haven't got a clue what it means! (This site gets waaaaaay too intellectual for me at times.)

Think I need to read a dictionary when I go to bed tonight instead of the gory murder mystery that's been enthralling me for the last few nights. Can't wait to find out what pasta mix (macaronic melange) has got to do with this topic!

[Dot]

All the big words are Presbyter's. The only one that is out of the ordinary is "macaronic", describing a text with different bits in different languages, eg. English and Latin. The rest are fairly standard terms in everyday life, or so I thought. I prefer my macaroni with cheese sauce.

[presbyter]

Note also that, in our case, the older members of the congregation are imbued with ideas - inherited from pre Vatican II times that such music should be left to the choir (despite determined campaigns in the 1930s to promote Congregational participation).

Thomas - if this in in Durham and we are talking about members of a former mining community, I'm surprised they are reluctant to sing.

My own childhood memories of a mining community somewhat south of you (but definitely 'up North') are of choir/congregation alternate singing of the plainsong Ordinary - and pretty full-bodied singing at that.

(Why do mining communities like Grand Opera? There's a question for the musical sociologists.)

[Sonoqui]

The only one that is out of the ordinary is "macaronic", describing a text with different bits in different languages, eg. English and Latin.

So 'macaronic melange' is in itself macaronic!

All the big words are Presbyter's.

If in doubt, blame the priest!

[docmattc]

Not just Grand Opera. Why do mining communities like music? In Yorkshire it seems to be mostly bands and in Wales it's mostly choirs.

Having been brought up in a Notts mining village and now living in the heart of 'Brassed Off' country, I believe both bands and choirs started as a means of excercising the miner's lungs in an attempt to get the coal dust out. The bands/choirs were often sponsored by the mine owners as it was in thier interests to lenghten the working life of the employees.
My grandfather was a miner and loved brass band music, although he didn't play any instrument.