Holy days of Obligation

ChrisC · Post by **ChrisC** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:04 pm

My instinct on this one is of sadness. Of course we must consider and be sympathetic to communities where celebrating Holydays on weekdays constitutes a serious burden. It seems that the solution to this could be by means of dispensation where necessary.

Any change to the National observance of this matter is subject to the Bishops' Conference (and Holy See approval). What I wonder is whether it is necessary to impose this change on the whole country.

I would not advocate 'Catholic Distinctiveness, whatever the cost', but I feel something that belongs to all of us has been taken away, and that we are going to be the poorer for it. Surely there are more creative solutions available which accord with the norms required? I won't reveal my whereabouts, but we are a community of young people and we have three Masses on Holydays. At one stage we tried to remove one of those celebrations and there was an outcry: we had to put it back. We are perhaps fortunate that we have more priests available to us than most, but I think this new legislation is going to meet with a baffled shrug from most people.

Hello!

asb · Post by **asb** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:14 am

My two current thoughts:-

1) A Holyday of Obligation surely means what it says. If it is now easier for people to attend on three of them, does that devalue the others in terms of either obligation, or spiritual significance?

2) We have lost that unique 7th Sunday of Easter - post Ascension and pre Pentecost. And what happens about the Novena (again, post Ascension leading up to Pentecost?

Merseysider · Post by **Merseysider** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:28 pm

You can still have your Novena â€“ just start nine days before Pentecost â€“ but these are private devitions rather than public liturgy. I'm a tad wary of such things â€“ do A, B and C on X occasions and your dreams will come true. We see much of such things up here in small ads in the local papers: "Thanks to Saint Polycarp for favours granted. Recite this prayer three times. Guaranteed. Publication promised". It all sound a tad like painting your bottom blue and running round the oak tree. Can our relationship with God be reduced to mathematical formulae?

asb · Post by **asb** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:35 pm

Merseysider wrote:You can still have your Novena â€“ just start nine days before Pentecost â€“ but these are private devotions rather than public liturgy.

Really? I read http://www.presentationministries.com/b ... Novena.asp differently

Merseysider · Post by **Merseysider** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:07 pm

Then read it again â€“ nothing there to stop you having your Novena and nothing to stop you having it at any other time.

If we're bandying church documents, then remember that "by the venerable tradition of the universal Church,morning prayer and evening prayer are the two hinges on which the daily office turns; hence they are to be considered as the chief hours and celebrated as such." (Chapter 2. General Instruction of the Liturgy of the Hours.)

So you'll need to get those in as well as your Novena.

But if we're going to quote everything every Pope has instructed then we'll never be out of church. Also, we'll have arguments in favour of war, capital punishment and slavery.

asb · Post by **asb** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:11 pm

"We decree and command that throughout the whole Catholic Church, this year and in every subsequent year, a novena shall take place before Whit-Sunday (Pentecost), in all parish churches."

Sorry - to me this says "organized liturgy". (And I have no axe to grind; I have never kept a Novena in my life)

Merseysider · Post by **Merseysider** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:01 am

Apologies, dear asb, wasn't meaning to criticise. Just saying that I can't see anything stopping the Novena going ahead. Also, despite papal pronouncements, I'm sure that in many parishes novenas remain a private devotion or are celebrated by a small gathering.

asb · Post by **asb** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:42 am

No apology needed, dear (fellow) Merseysider!

I think that my original and main point (the Novena business was something of an aside) has been overlooked: namely the loss of the 7th Sunday of Easter, with it's unique character, post-Ascension and pre-coming of the Holy Spirit. I always perceive it as a sort of "Advent" Sunday for Pentecost....

docmattc · Post by **docmattc** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:59 am

asb wrote:I think that my original and main point (the Novena business was something of an aside) has been overlooked: namely the loss of the 7th Sunday of Easter, with it's unique character, post-Ascension and pre-coming of the Holy Spirit. I always perceive it as a sort of "Advent" Sunday for Pentecost....

This has always been my take on 7th Sunday Easter too. Last year one of the choir questioned my choice of a 'Come Holy Ghost' type hymn on this Sunday as it wasn't Pentecost. My reply was that if you were sending out an invite to an important event, would you wait until the day of the event to do it?

I'm not so bothered whether holydays are Sundays or not but we do need to make something more of the 'advent' of Pentecost. Its one of the 3 major feasts of the year but is all too often relegated to 'just another Sunday'.

The readings for Ascension in themselves refer to the coming of the Spirit:

I pray that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation as you come to know him. (1 Eph 1:17)

and

But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth. (Acts 1:8 )

and year C

And see, I am sending upon you what my Father promised; so stay here in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high. (Lk 24:49)

so we haven't entirely lost the preparation for Pentecost element to this Sunday, we just need to work out how best to combine it with the 'Go out to the whole world' message of the Ascension Gospels.

docmattc · Post by **docmattc** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:07 am

As far as I can work out, Epiphany will either displace the Baptism of the Lord, or Holy Family. Am I right?

Gabriel · Post by **Gabriel** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:01 pm

When transferred to a Sunday the Epiphany falls on the Sunday between 2-8 January.
When it falls on 7 or 8 January the Baptism of the Lord is transferred to the Monday.
What is 'lost' is the 2nd Sunday after Christmas which previously only occured when Sunday fell on the 2-4 January.

(Holy Family falls on the Sunday 26-31 December. When 1 January is a Sunday it is Mary Mother of God. In that year Holy Family is celebrated on Friday 30 December.)

Gabriel

dunstan · Post by **dunstan** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:23 pm

That's right - we were short of carols Christmas 2005 because the Holy Family was bumped for Mary Mother of God, and there was no 2nd Sunday. I always make a point of celebrating Christmas through the whole season as a counterpoint to the secular world celebrating Christmas during Advent. My colleagues look askance in early January when asked "Are you having a good Christmas".

I'll get my coat now.

edbowie · Post by **edbowie** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:59 am

Well it looks like Epiphany, Ascension, Corpus Christi are the HDOB to be ditched. I can understand their decision re Epiphany and CC but the decision to ditch Ascension as a HDOB completely baffles me. Its one of the great solemnities of the Church and is stated in the creeds etc.

presbyter · Post by **presbyter** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:07 am

edbowie wrote:Well it looks like Epiphany, Ascension, Corpus Christi are the HDOB to be ditched.

Not ditched - transferred to the Sunday. Mass attendance on Holy Days is often very, very poor. Holy Days have long since ceased to be Holidays.... even in Catholic Schools. Now the faithful who - for legitimate reasons - have been unable to celebrate these great feasts on a weekday will have the opportunity so to do on a Sunday.

Yet I have some sympathy with those who find the loss of marking 40 then 50 days after Easter puzzling.

I remember the practice in Rome (probably still the same). The parish churches transfer the HD to the Sunday but the Major Basilicas celebrate on the day itself. It's confusing!

(I keep praying that the Western and Eastern Churches will one day soon agree on a fixed Sunday for Easter.)

dunstan · Post by **dunstan** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:48 pm

So if we have Corpus Christi on a Sunday, will there be more incentive to have some sort of procession as people wouldn't have to take time off work? Do you think they'd stop the traffic on the A38 to allow a procession from Birmingham City Centre up to St Chad's?