Diocesan Music - what is being promoted?

presbyter · Post by **presbyter** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:48 pm

Not wishing to spoil Merseysider's thread about his workshop -

Read that thread first please.

So how are we addressing Liturgiam Authenticam 108 and GIRM chapter 9 - locally and nationally?

What music can we now promote? What can we do in workshops?

See what is happening in the USA here

http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/

Download the Powerpoint presentation of their Music Subcommittee

asb · Post by **asb** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:21 am

If promoting Liturgiam Authenticam means learning and introducing new settings, what can I do in my situation, where the PP will not allow Congregational Rehearsals unless he leads them - and is totally unmusical and cannot sing in time or tune? Serious answers only, please - seriously. this is a problem. :roll:

oopsorganist · Post by **oopsorganist** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 1:09 pm

yep

similar here. We haven't learned the old ones yet. We're still having big upsets about who chooses the hymns for the sandwich.

And, we just used guitars for the Confirmation and I was a bit worried about doing this as I do not think our Bishop likes this. I was in a real stew about it all.

musicus · Post by **musicus** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 12:12 am

oopsorganist wrote:We just used guitars for the Confirmation and I was a bit worried about doing this as I do not think our Bishop likes this. I was in a real stew about it all.

Whose music is it anyway?

Many years ago, in a previous, less-enlightened parish, I directed the music for a confirmation where all the candidates were teenagers. We used music of their choice - Spring Harvest and suchlike - rather than the traditional stuff. During the celebration the PP (who, as usual, had left the choices to me) became extremely jittery about this, mainly, I suppose, because of what the Bishop might think. Afterwards, the congregation virtually queued up to tell him and the Bishop (who were both gracious enough to smile about it) how refreshing it had been to have contemporary Christian music instead of the usual hackneyed old favourites.

I enjoyed that.

asb · Post by **asb** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:50 am

Not really wishing to be provocative - but will Spring Harvest's (etc)offerings stand the test of time as have the "Hackneyed Favourites" - which must have become favourites for a good reason.......?
:twisted:

And are these confirmees still coming to Mass?

oopsorganist · Post by **oopsorganist** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:14 pm

Don't know Spring Harvest.

I tend towards the traditional hymn ( the more miserable the better!) although I have found this is area specific and also note that many of these are Anglican in origin.... I have two great old tomes of old Catholic Hymns in the organ loft which have such things as Marian Hymns and Guardian Angel from Heaven so Bright, but not Hark Hark My Soul which is my favourite from primary school in London, and truly dreary.

We did two Farrell songs and some others which we have Joe Burns to thank for and everyone was very happy including the Bishop who luckily was Konstant. Tis the other Bishop we have who wishes to ban guitars, or have I got this wildly wrong? I think we got away with a bit because we sang a very good plainsong Alleluia unaccompanied at the right moment and reminded everyone we can do traditional things. Father wanted "Veni Veni Spiritus" but I do not know this and neither does he and we don't have a choir anyway so even if we knew it we had no one to teach it to. I caught a little bit of stress from Father in the end, who had given it little thought until the event was upon us and the Diocesan office sent him written advice.

But I thought that the music belonged to the people as their response to the Liturgy otherwise they would train priests to sing or have a more defined and authorised role for church musicians. Oh but I think they do that in the Anglican church with their Cathedral music heritage. Well I am just rambling now.

I'm up for Alleluias and Acclamations and Glorias and discovering lots of interesting stuff but I'm not going to personally sing them as I am the organist. Our congregation are only up for Watching the Sunrise, all as I am with some binding.

gwyn · Post by **gwyn** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:09 pm

Out with Amazing Grace? I hope so. This fomr the EWTN Catholic Q & A page.

Amazing Grace
Question from Mary O. on 09-29-2004:

Dear Mr. Donovan:
I've read past posts about the inappropriate use of the song "Amazing Grace" at mass, it being protestant in nature. I think it is the 2nd verse that is in question..."how precious did that grace appear, the hour I first believed". I don't get it. Why do we have such a problem with those lines? We need God's grace to believe so what's the big deal. This song is sung at just about every Catholic funeral I've attended and that particular troubling verse probably goes right over people's heads. Please explain. Thanks and God Bless
Mary O.

Answer by Colin B. Donovan, STL on 10-25-2004:

The grace of which the hymn is speaking is not "actual grace," which moves us to conversion, or the grace of faith, which moves us to believe, though not apart from the command of our own will accepting Christ's teaching, but justifying, sanctifying, grace. It is the grace by which we are saved by faith, as Protestants understand that.

The problem is the implication that "the hour" in which grace is infused, is when "I believed."

Catholic doctrine is that faith given preparatory to baptism does not confer grace, but that baptism infuses sanctifying grace, charity, Gifts of the Holy Spirit and the infused moral virtues, into the soul. A doctrinally incorrect hymn should not be used in the liturgy. If "when we sing we pray twice," when we sing such a hymn we err twice. This is not a good thing for Catholics to do.

musicus · Post by **musicus** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:08 pm

asb wrote:Not really wishing to be provocative - but will Spring Harvest's (etc)offerings stand the test of time as have the "Hackneyed Favourites" - which must have become favourites for a good reason.......?

And are these confirmees still coming to Mass?

Well, it was 10 years ago!

But - and this is a serious point - popular music is meant to be of the here-and-now, not for posterity. (OK, some pop is so good that it does persist, but it is the exception.) The songs in question spoke to those young people then in a way that 'Come, Holy Ghost' etc did not.

As to whether they still come to Mass, I know not, as I have moved since then. I do know that they felt special and listened-to and not condescended to at the time. That can't be bad.

asb · Post by **asb** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 5:40 am

Fair comment, with which I wholly concur.

For our last Confirmation, which happened when our PP was in hospital, we had a retired Priest "holding the fort". I had programmed "Sing of the Lord's goodness" to start (yes, you can process to 5/4!) but on "the day" the Temporary Boss insisted on "Come Holy Ghost", which meant giving out hymnbooks and announcing that the entrance hymn was not the one on the Order of Service. None of the candidates still come, and that was only 2 years ago.

presbyter · Post by **presbyter** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:08 am

I'm just moving Martin's reply to this thread with a view to posting a reply here....

Martin Foster wrote:The ICET text for the Lamb of God was approved by the Bishops for use when sung in 1980s - it is referred to in the directory 'Music in the Parish Mass'.
The ICET text is 'Jesus, Lamb of God... Jesus, bearer of our sins... Jesus, redeemer of the world...'

As Presbyter and others will be aware the Bishops' Conference through the Department for Christian Life and Worship is looking at how to best respond in England and Wales to the material in GIRM and LA about oversight of liturgical music. Some of the pertinent issues have been raised in this forum.

I would refer to the 'Roman Missal; a guide to composers' on the Liturgy Office website.

The document is a draft awaiting approved texts for the 3rd edition of Roman Missal but is 'an indication of future guidance'. The section on the Lamb of God quotes GIRM 83 and notes that 'Further invocations are also provided in the appendix as model texts for the lengthening of the litany to accompany the Breaking of the Bread'.

I imagine that when a final text is presented to the Department a rationale will be provided for this inclusion to assit the bishops with their decision whether to include it.

If I were doing a day on the subject I would offer what one can do now and not speculate on what we might do beyond that there is a new translation of Missal in preparation and may mean changes to people's texts. What we have now is the GIRM and the opportunity to review current practice I would therefore want to look at GIRM 83 and its implications for our parish practice.

As a personal opinion I would want to reflect on the relationship between action and music. My experience in many parishes is that often the breaking of bread is not a significant moment and even the shortest of settings is longer than the action. The effect of this is that the Lamb of God covers more than the breaking of bread and in the end the action is made to fit the music and not vice-versa.

Martin

presbyter · Post by **presbyter** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:23 am

And if you are wondering what on earth the issues in LA and GIRM are:

108. Sung texts and liturgical hymns have a particular importance and efficacy. Especially on Sunday, the "Day of the Lord", the singing of the faithful gathered for the celebration of Holy Mass, no less than the prayers, the readings and the homily, express in an authentic way the message of the Liturgy while fostering a sense of common faith and communion in charity.

If they are used widely by the faithful, they should remain relatively fixed so that confusion among the people may be avoided. Within five years from the publication of this Instruction, the Conferences of Bishops, necessarily in collaboration with the national and diocesan Commissions and with other experts, shall provide for the publication of a directory or repertory of texts intended for liturgical singing. This document shall be transmitted for the necessary recognitio to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments.

But please note that this is addressed to Conferences of Bishops - not individual Bishops

presbyter · Post by **presbyter** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:29 am

390. It is up to the Conferences of Bishops to decide on the adaptations
indicated in this General Instruction and in the Order of Mass and, once their decisions have been accorded the recognitio of the Apostolic See, to introduce them into the Missal itself. These adaptations include:
- the gestures and posture of the faithful (cf. no. 43);
?the gestures of veneration toward the altar and the Book of the Gospels
(cf. no. 273);
- the texts of the chants at the Entrance, at the Presentation of the Gifts, and at Communion (cf. nos. 48, 74, 87);
?the readings from Sacred Scripture to be used in special circumstances (cf. no. 362);
- the form of the gesture of peace (cf. no. 82);
- the manner of receiving Holy Communion (cf. nos. 160, 283);
- the materials for the altar and sacred furnishings, especially the sacred
vessels, and also the materials, form, and colour of the liturgical vestments
(cf. nos. 301, 326, 329, 339, 342-346).
Directories or pastoral instructions that the Conferences of Bishops judge
useful may, with the prior recognitioof the Apostolic See, be included in the Roman Missal at an appropriate place.

393. Bearing in mind the important place that singing has in a celebration as a necessary or integral part of the Liturgy, all musical settings of the texts for the people?s responses and acclamations in the Order of Mass and for special rites that occur in the course of the liturgical year must be submitted to the appropriate office of the Conference of Bishops of England and Wales for review and approval prior to publication.
The Conference is likewise to judge which musical forms, melodies, and
musical instruments may be admitted in divine worship, provided that these are truly suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use.

presbyter · Post by **presbyter** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:07 am

Again we can note that this is addressed to Conferences of Bishops and not to Bishops as individuals - if you'll forgive the colloquialism - "so that we're all singing from the same hymn sheet"

Yet for a summary of the role of the Diocesan Bishop, read the the first chapter of Redemptionis Sacramentum http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html

Individual Bishops can give guidance at present to their Commissions - as mine has - and I'm wondering if any other Bishop has done so.

presbyter · Post by **presbyter** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:32 am

musicus wrote:But - and this is a serious point - popular music is meant to be of the here-and-now, not for posterity. (OK, some pop is so good that it does persist, but it is the exception.)

But then what has become pop can be - imhbho - excruciatingly egregious and it persists. Why is "As I kneel before you" so well-loved? Its musical genre is that of Sicilian soppy sentimentality which belongs to a late night beach party whereat copious cases of Corvo Rosso have been consumed and its theology is highly questionable. Yet it persists.

musicus · Post by **musicus** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 4:16 pm

I was using 'popular' in the semi-technical sense (eg 'popular' music - as opposed to 'classical' or 'romantic'), not in the sense of 'having become popular'. Radio DJs have always known that if they repeat something often enough it will tend to become popular. Just about the only point in favour of an officially approved hymn list is perhaps that some of us here will be spared the occasional ordeal of being (or attempting to be) a parish's sole advocate of musical/theological/pastoral appropriateness. What do you do if the PP insists on As I kneel before you or whatever? Fortunately, it hasn't happened to me yet.