Tridentine Mass

[asb]

My church hosts a monthly Tridentine Mass (1962 Missal).

Until now it has been a said Low Mass, but I have been asked to play the organ and provide suitable music starting from next month.

Apart from having a copy of the 1962 Missal, I don't know where to start.

HELP!!

[presbyter]

Just yourself and an organ or is there a schola?

[asb]

Me + experienced cantor

[Anonymous]

Best start with one of the well known plainchant mass settings, such as Missa de Angelis (No. VIII). All 'Tridentineites' will know it and you can find it in Laudate or CFE.
For the proper of the mass, look at the antiphons from your missal and, assuming you can read neums, have a look at http://www.christusrex.org/www2/cantgreg/partituras/ to see if the music for the relevant propers is available.
If you want to hear the melodies then try
http://www.christusrex.org/www2/cantgreg/cantus

Good Luck

[Reginald]

I don't know if this is too far off the original topic but...It amazes me that our Bishops, when they do allow indult masses, don't insist on something other than said Low Mass. Dialogue Mass, and Mass which follows the various things that were allowed for (though, of course, not mandated) in Mediator Dei would be more in keeping with the mind of the Church at VII (participation of the lay faithful and so on), and would reflect our current ecclesiology too. If half the rumours coming out of the Roman Rumour Mill are to be believed, retrospectively implementing Mediator Dei could be extremely important for a number of us.

I was astonished to read recently that the Dialogue Mass was formally banned in a number of the dioceses of England and Wales prior to VII. Similarly that the 4-hymn sandwich that we all loathe (well, I do at least) was introduced by our then bishops in the early '60s to enable the people to participate in Low Mass (they specifically 'banned' sung Mass parts from Low Mass as being inappropriate). How different the Catholic Church in these islands might look today if they'd pushed the dialogue Mass, with chants, in the '40s and '50s.

[presbyter]

It amazes me that our Bishops, when they do allow indult masses.........

Don't think Bishops need to give permission now - didn't Rome give universal faculties recently?

[presbyter]

How different the Catholic Church in these islands might look today if they'd pushed the dialogue Mass, with chants, in the '40s and '50s.

I experienced the Dialogue Mass becoming part of my being in c.1958 at primary School. Mass VIII and Credo III became part of being even earlier - about age 3 I think .

I used to host a weekly LMS celebration - more than ten years ago now - and I was always disappointed that it was never a Dialogue Mass - the faithful few either following Mass silently from parallel text Missals - or engaging in Private Devotions during the celebration ....

..... - mind you, that still happens. I bet you've one or two elderly ladies (usually) who say the Rosary during Mass in English.

By the way - do start the Agnus Dei at the right time - it's not quite where it is in the Missal of Paul VI - it does not accompany "The Breaking of Bread" (Not that such attention to detail every worried composers/singers of the Baroque and Classical periods in many places. The Music could become so disconnected from the Rite that sometimes Mass "went on" , as it were, underneath the music.)

Orémus.


Præcéptis salutáribus móniti, et divína institutióne formáti, audémus dícere:


He extends his hands and looking at the Sacrament, says aloud:


Pater noster, qui es in cælis: Sanctificétur nomen tuum: Advéniat regnum tuum: Fiat volúntas tua, sicut in cælo, et in terra. Panem nostrum quotidiánum da nobis hódie: Et dimítte nobis débita nostra, sicut et nos dismíttimus debitóribus nostris. Et ne nos indúcas in tentatiónem.


S. Sed líbera nos a malo.


P. Amen.



The priest takes the paten between his first and second fingers, saying:


Líbera nos, quæsumus, Dómine, ab ómnibus malis, prætéritis, præséntibus, et futúris: et intercedénte beáta et gloriósa semper Vírgine Dei Genitríce María, cum beátis Apóstolis tuis Petro et Paulo, atque Andréa, et ómnibus anctis, + da propítius pacem in diébus nostris: ut ope misericórdiæ tuæ adjúti, et a peccáto simus semper líberi, et ab omni perturbatióne secúri.


He uncovers the chalice, genuflects, takes the Host and breaking it down the middle over the chalice says:


Per eúndem Dóminum nostrum Jesum Christum Fílium tuum,


He breaks off a Particle from the Host.


Qui tecum vivit et regnat in unitáte Spíritus Sancti Deus,
,

P. Per ómni sæcula sæculorum.


S. Amen.


He makes the Sign of the Cross over the chalice, saying:


P. Pax+Dómini sit + semper vobís +cum.


S. Et cum spíritu tuo.


He places the Particle in the chalice and says quietly:


Hæc commíxtio et consecrátio Córprois et Sánguinis Dómini nostri Jesu Christi, fiat accipiéntibus nobis in vitam ætérnam. Amen.


The priest covers the chalice, genuflects, and then bowing strikes his breast three times, saying aloud:


Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccáta mundi: miserére nobis.
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccáta munid: miserére nobis.
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccáta mundi: dona nobis pacem.

[presbyter]

Líbera nos, quæsumus, Dómine, ab ómnibus malis, prætéritis, præséntibus, et *beep*úris:

The Latin has been beeped!!!!!!! Ha!

The word is f u t u r i s - what's so rude about that?

[Reginald]

"Don't think Bishops need to give permission now - didn't Rome give universal faculties recently?"

I think I'm right in saying that any priest can say the Mass according to the liturgical books in force in 1962 - but that such a Mass can only be celebrated publicly with the permission of the local Ordinary. I suppose the danger of forcing priests to celebrate Mass privately is that they then become very comfortable with the format of Low Mass and aren't encouraged to 'raise their liturgical game' at all.

Recently heard HE Card. Arinze saying that the Mass of the Modern Roman Rite is just the same as the former Rite but with a few modifications. I guess there is a sense in which he's right if you compare an all singing, all dancing (figuratively speaking) dialogue Mass with Mass according to the strictest interpretation of the GIRM.

[asb]

Thanks for replies.

I am familiar with De angelis and credo III as we use them regularly in otherwise vernacular Masses. My uncertainties are mainly such as Presbyter mentions regarding the Agnus Dei for example.

Also, it is always made clear that the monthly Mass is not a dialogue mass - how does this affect my input?

[Reginald]

I think it's time to get back to your PP. In a dialogue Mass, as I understand it (far too young to have any experience of it!!!), the congregation would say the responses that, at Low Mass, are said by the server. It might be that your PP envisages nothing more than 'incidental music'.
Maybe he envisages the congregation joining in the Kyrie, Sanctus, Agnus, with the Pater Noster and perhaps the Gloria and Credo if the day requires it. I think I'm right in saying that that was what Pope St Pius X was looking for in encouraging the Gregorian revival, prior to the introduction of the Dialogue Mass, but I honstly don't know what would happen about the singing of antiphons and such like. From the passage (Mediator Dei) quoted below it may also be possible to infer that a hymn sandwich of some description is appropriate

"They also are to be commended who strive to make the liturgy even in an external way a sacred act in which all who are present may share. This can be done in more than one way, when, for instance, the whole congregation, in accordance with the rules of the liturgy, either answer the priest in an orderly and fitting manner, or sing hymns suitable to the different parts of the Mass, or do both, or finally in high Masses when they answer the prayers of the minister of Jesus Christ and also sing the liturgical chant."

Let us know what your PP has to say and we can trawl the rubrics together!

[asb]

PP has no input - he'll be watching Sky Sport.

Mass is said by an amazingly old priest who arrives by car (driven by someone else!!) 2 mins before Mass. No chance of any help there.

No one seems to believe that I do not have relevant experience to just bring the whole thing off!!