when to begin "Lord Have Mercy"

oopsorganist · Post by **oopsorganist** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 1:20 pm

Hello

When should we start the Kyrie? Father asked me to play it after he does the absolution words "May....." which is after we have all said it anyway and it interferes with the start of the Goria so that may be why we always chant the Gloria even if we have the music out and ready. Any advice? It's been puzzling me for years.

Vox Americana · Post by **Vox Americana** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 3:23 pm

oopsorganist wrote:Father asked me to play it after he does the absolution wordsâ€¦

which is kinda right - but:

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal, n52 wrote:After the Penitential Act, the Kyrie is always begun, unless it has already been included as part of the Penitential Actâ€¦

So, if Father says the Kyrie as part of the Penitential Act, you don't sing it. Launch into the Gloria, when that's seasonally appropriate. If Father wants it sung after the absolution, persuade him that he should use the Confiteor. Alternatively, sing the Kyrie as part of the Penitential Act, perhaps with tropes, as GIRM, n52, goes on to say (but this happens before the Absolution).

Note also the invitation in n51 to use the Blessing and Sprinkling of Water to recall Baptism (especially during the Season of Easter). Might be an idea to suggest to Father!

Personally, I think that there is a danger of too much music at the beginning of Mass: Entrance Hymn, Kyrie, and Gloria can become a bit overpowering in a short space of time. "When should we start the Kyrie?" you asked; I'd honestly answer "Only during Lent?"

docmattc · Post by **docmattc** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:16 pm

Vox Americana wrote:Personally, I think that there is a danger of too much music at the beginning of Mass: Entrance Hymn, Kyrie, and Gloria can become a bit overpowering in a short space of time. "When should we start the Kyrie?" you asked; I'd honestly answer "Only during Lent?"

I'm completely in agreement with our friend over the pond here! I only use a sung kyrie in advent and lent or if the theme of the readings is particularly penitential. In Advent we sang the kyrie as part of penitential rite 3 with John Schiavone's advent tropes. In Lent we'll probably use mostly pen rite 1 with a straight kyrie after "May Almighty God..." Singing both kyrie and gloria means that there's such a sudden mood change between the two it can be quite jarring. There are threads here about what a mess the introductory rites are anyway with all the various bits stuck together in a not very coherent manner.
On the rare occasion we sing both kyrie and gloria ( for instance looking at the psalm for next Sunday there might be an argument for making more of the kyrie) I leave a significant silence between the two to accommodate the mood change (and to sort out the change of music!)

presbyter · Post by **presbyter** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:19 pm

Vox Americana wrote: "When should we start the Kyrie?" you asked; I'd honestly answer "Only during Lent?"

Is that because you think it is a penitential song? (See Kyrie eleison thread)

Vox Americana · Post by **Vox Americana** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:09 pm

Not at all. n52, as quoted above, makes it an ambiguous prayer. If it is included in the Penitential Act, then by definition the Church is using it penitentially; if it comes after the absolution, it is more in line with the Gloria, praising God for forgiveness given.

If this post had gone up last October/November, I'd equally have suggested Advent, but I don't see that season as penitential at all. The point was that we don't sing the Gloria in those seasons so there is less musical pressure on the opening rites and more space to sing the Kyrie. Ordinarily, I'd choose sing the Gloria, not both.