Glory to God

[VML]

Hang about a bit, didn't the two Glorias I know of from the Papal visit in 82, Coventry and Cardiff, have responses. JPii didn't complain...

[Merseysider]

And that from Liverpool too. There again, could you imagine HH stopping a massive outdoor event to complain about the Israeli Mass?

[presbyter]

Gwyn asks us to 'draw a comaprison'

Ah - now is this a description of a liturgy you have slept through pirate - imprisoned in a coma?

nice typo pirate

[pirate]

So what happened when I was last at Evensnog...?

[sidvicius]

Anyone who hasn't read the no-holds-barred document which dot provides a link to at her last post really should do so right now. It's a powerful argument I couldn't find much fault with, although the translation to "and peace to all nice people, er - but not nasty ones" is a moot point.

I was particularly intrigued by his comments on cantor leading, but only in the vain hope that it might inspire some interest in my currently comaprisoned "cantors" thread...

Nice spot, dot.

[musicus]

Anyone who hasn't read the no-holds-barred document which dot provides a link to at her last post really should do so right now. It's a powerful argument I couldn't find much fault with, although the translation to "and peace to all nice people, er - but not nasty ones" is a moot point.

This is the (in)famous document that characterises the Coventry Gloria as "theologically suspicious, if not downright sinister"

[mcb]

It's a powerful argument I couldn't find much fault with

Can't say I agree with you, Sid; looks like garbage to me. The argument (if you can dignify it with the term) is more or less based on the principle 'knock anything new and think of the reasons afterwards'. Over and over again the reasoning looks utterly threadbare.

In the first place you've got to be doubtful whether someone advancing the Vivaldi (or the Poulenc) Gloria as a good liturgical model deserves any more of your time. Then there's a curious sideswipe at the syntax of Mike Anderson's (horrid ) 'Clapping' Gloria:

For some reason, the first half of this verse is lacking in verbs and articles. This level of syntax is unworthy of even the Teletubbies, much less the Holy Mass.

So, the same syntax as, er, Gloria in excelsis Deo et in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntatis, then? Can't see any verbs or articles there either.

Oddest of all is the author's criticism of the responsorial format, on the grounds that it turns the Gloria into a dialogue between cantor and assembly. So that's what an antiphonal rendition of Credo III is then? Or the litany of the saints? For heaven's sake.

What's most bogus of all here is the holding up of the through-composed Gloria as if it were normative for congregational participation. Someone who knows their liturgical history can put me right if I'm wrong about this, but I'll speculate: congregational singing of the plainchant Gloria dates back less than a hundred years. Before that, the Gloria was exclusively the province of the choir, and the exclusion of the assembly (if listening means being excluded, but that's another argument) was complete. The author wants us to believe that limiting the congregation's active participation to a response excludes them. But in fact a Gloria with a memorable singable refrain, that finds its way into the heart and stays there, seems to me to be a very effective way of including everyone; at least as effective as the centuries of hearing it chanted by the choir.

The author gives the game away by referring to the Gloria, rightly, as an ancient hymn. Hymns take many forms, through-composed, strophic, antiphonal, responsorial, and all of these are valid ways of articulating authentic words of prayer.

M.

[musicus]

What a great post, mcb! Such occasional injections of intellectual rigour are very refreshing.

In case anyone hasn't read the article in question, the author suggests at one point that responsorial forms lead to the assembly praying to the cantor. mcb's citing of the Litany of the Saints is masterly: as if the vast throng in St Peter's Square recently was praying to the choir when it responded with ora pro nobis.

Musicus

[mcb]

What a great post, mcb! Such occasional injections of intellectual rigour are very refreshing.

Gosh! I'm almost incontinent with pride. Intellectual rigor mortis is about the best I can normally rise to.

M.

[Merseysider]

I, too, followed Dot's link and was somewhat taken aback by the piece. And I looked at other pieces on the site which called for an end to the cantor (referred to as the soloist), a ban on guitars and, for some reason, kazoos. (There's goes my new setting of the Ave Maria – in Latin – with ostinato kazoo, jingle stick and swanee whistle.) The author of these pieces was so adamant that contemporary music was destroying the One True Faith she loved so much that she left for a while and joined the Methodists and Episcopalians!

For a couple of days I veered between anger and a strange nagging sensation of "What if the author's right?" Arrived at church this morning and remembered what it's all about. I'm always quoting our congregation on here – how wonderful they are, how they make me feel. But it's true. After a liturgical ding-dong, there's nothing better than getting back to grass roots and doing it instead of talking about it.

[Dot]

I hoped that Sid's would be a minority view and I'm glad you guys have had the balls to challenge it; I didn't, to my shame (or is it just an anatomical fact of life?)

I remain convinced that you can't fully measure the value of a work in theory, you have to put it into practice to make a true judgement of it. And don't judge it too soon - practise it first and give the musicians and congregation time to take ownership. I do still try to listen to "received wisdom" but it often clashes with reality.

Dot

[VML]

This article against responsorial Glorias is by a classical pianist and chamber musician who condemns 'folk style' music out of hand when folk music is as diverse in style as church music. He does not actually demonstrate any knowledge of the music of the people, but he knows he hates it.
Yes, the scrubbing of three chords behind repetetive 70s songs for lazy guitarists is not the best in church music, but it is not folk music either.

The only Gloria I have composed is straight through, and our parish now knows it well, whether it is accompanied on organ, instruments or both.

However, it is hard to deprive the congregation of 'Clapping' especially as the catechists for FirstHC and Confirmation specifically demand it.

And it is surprising how possible it is to find a renewed affection for hymns one had dismissed for all the, to us here, obvious reasons.

We have the luxury of playing the music for our daughter's wedding, so we have the Coventry Sanctus on flute, violin, alto sax and guitars. But since the groom is not Catholic, it is only right that his input includes choosing from the few hymns with which he is familiar. So I am seeing 'Sing Hosanna' and 'Colours of day' in a new light .

mcb is dead right about litanies etc. And the separation of the first phrase of the Gloria, as intoned by the celebrant, goes back at least to c.1500 on a nativity painting in the vatican museum, (I'm too lazy to go and look it up,) with a readable, recognisable and fairly recently sung line of Gregorian chant.
V

[sidvicius]

- and the posts above are exactly why I recommended people read it - talk about encouraging debate! "Powerful Argument" was my polite way of saying "this bloke is pulling no punches" (and that's my polite way of saying something less polite). I'm glad that you have all found reasoned reasons to disagree with me and it.

In my limp defence I will reiterate that I did find some faults with it, though not, apparently, the same ones that anyone else found!

So - is the Adoremus Organisation somewhat traditional in its outlook? I must say, any society that bemoans the delights of the Kazoo is perhaps stifling musical creativity among its youth - what did happen to Donegan's "skiffle mass in Z"?

Interestingly, all this does bring us full circle back to contrabordun's very first post in this thread. When you review all that has been written from there, well, what a long way we have come. Are we any nearer to any conclusions? I think we are, and - for the sake of reasoned discussion - I do hope not.

Thank you all. Now - on with the debate!

[Merseysider]

...you can't fully measure the value of a work in theory, you have to put it into practice to make a true judgement of it...give the musicians and congregation time to take ownership.

Dot is spot on here. You really do have to allow time for items to seep into the hearts and minds of the assembly. There might be stacks of wonderful music out there but you can't simply impose it on folk.

We've certainly abandoned a few pieces we wanted to do simply because, having been tried and tested, they've been rejected – albeit subconsciously – by the assembly. On the other hand, trickier items have been well-received after a couple of attemps. I remember introducing the refrain of Farrell's "All That Is Hidden" and looking at slightly bemused pew-dwellers – a few of months on and it's become a real standard. (Hope I'm not off topic here.)

So glad Dot's balls weren't bleeped.

[contrabordun]

all this does bring us full circle back to contrabordun's very first post

now approaching its first birthday...how did that happen?