Sounds to me as though TT's parish is incredibly lucky to get the range of music she describes above – but the complication in the parish setting is that "old" does not equal "well-known" any more than "new" means "foreign" or "alien". Similarly, there's no guarantee that older people will like 19th century hymns any more or less than they will like they newer stuff. And younger people? I've almost given up working out what they like and simply watch their reaction and make notes for future reference.
Take "Unless A Grain of Wheat" for example, written around 1983 – not exactly new, admittedly, but new to our parish a year ago. It's the one item most praised and most requested by the older members of the congregation. The altar servers love it too and can be seen singing along quite heartily.
When we sang "Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence" (is it around 12th century? correct me if I'm wrong but it's certainly pre Vat 2) one of the elderly regulars told me she didn't like "that new hymn". "My Song Is Love Unknown" had to be brought kicking and screaming into our parish although they were familiar with "When I Survey the Wondrous Cross" from "watching Songs of Praise".
The congregation belt out "I Will Be With You" and "Here I Am Lord" but were totally fazed by "Mary Immaculate, Star of the Morning" when we used it on our patronal feast day. (Immaculate Conception, 8th December).
They love Inwood Communion Song III but cannot cope with Agnus Dei XVIII – one comment was "hate all that Latin, we had to sing it at school". And I would love to know why the generations brought up on Sweet Sacrament Divine so love "Christ be our light" and "May the Choirs of Angels".
There's so much more to our job than keeping everyone happy by choosing music from assorted eras. It's much more to do with getting to know people, listening to what makes them tick and helping them assimilate music old and new, comfortable and unfamiliar.
I've always been convinced that the best way to get to know your assembly is to join them in the bar straight after Sunday Mass – then they're really, frighteningly honest. But you get wonderful eye-to-eye contact with them the following Sunday!
Well, no one said it would be easy...
Moderators: Dom Perignon, Casimir
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Merseysider
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PS Should add that, like TT, I have a superbly supportive parish priest. He's only ever banned one hym – because he thought it was bad for the kids – and he recently wanted to know why we were singing Franck's "Panis Angelicus" because he doesn't like Latin. On the other hand, he never misses a rehearsal unless pastoral duties take him elsewhere. And, on Sundays, if I'm running through anything with the congregation, he can be seen donning stole and chasuble while walking up and down the side aisle, singing his head off and wearing a huge grin. Yes, he demanded we add "Godhead Hid In Hiding" to the repertoire for the second Sunday of Easter last year – hardly an unreasonable request. We need more like him.
Re: Couldn't agree morePost a reply
Crumhorn wrote: may the hair on your PP's toes never fall out!
If you are as mystified as I was by that comment, it is a reference to Hobbitdom. No, I don't think that Crumhorn has gone mad, but he is getting very depressed.
I am also getting very depressed since I too feel that we are being bullied and we are not likely to get support from the parish council. (A conversation with the chairman today makes it apparent that we are regarded as being troublesome). A very dear friend from the parish died in her sleep early yesterday morning and I would like to be able to attend her funeral and sing for her ... as we have attended so many house masses for her and her late husband and sung joyfully for them both. We always sang 'Going home' from our old hymn books which shares a musical theme with Dvorak's 'New World'. This is also not greatly liked by the PP but was permitted off church premises.
We have learned quite a lot through this exchange. Every time we have a run in we spend hours studying the relevant texts and finding out more about what we should be doing. Alas I think the end of the road has come and we aren't going to get a chance to put it into action. I am desperately trying to find something positive to post.
What can we do? We have a mass community which sings reasonably well in a church that has a longish tradition for good music. We have six or seven masses that we can sing and jolly people into singing and we have a good number of hymns for all occasions. Should we put up and shut up? Are we being too proud hearted? I honestly don't know.
Pacabella,
Making a report!
Examination of conscience
Time to try an honest self-assessment -- if only to help others avoid the situation in which we find ourselves.
Have I listened enough to what the wider community wants?
That's difficult, given that most of them leave the church at high speed after Mass without stopping for a coffee -- I can only actually talk to the ones that DO stop. I always, whenever I can, take time to talk to them, but they are only a very small percentage of the whole congregation. They are supportive, helpful, and critical when necessary, and that's fine -- but I know I'm not always hearing from everyone else. We also have a 'reality check' -- a retired choir member who now sits in the body of the church and reports back on what people are singing, and when.
Have I simply tried to impose what I see as 'best practice' without working to 'entice the congregation along'?
I don't know. One of us (not always me, and not every Sunday) talks to the congregation for a minute or two before Mass to explain what we're singing and why, to introduce any new music, and to remind them that we want to hear from them about what they like, what they don't like, and what they like but can't quite sing yet. There is some response to this -- but not enough to make me happy about it.
Do we bring in too many 'new pieces' (i.e. new to the congregation, as opposed to 'old or new')?
No, we don't. We are very careful about introducing new pieces, and try to stick to things that are demonstrably in the repertoire -- (that's why we keep a detailed record of what has been sung, and when). Even so, our PPC Chairman insisted that when she came along one Sunday she 'didn't know any of the hymns' -- possibly because she doesn't often attend the 10.15 Mass, which is the one where we sing (but is she unusual in this?)
Do we choose the things people want to sing?
Ah, there's the rub. We try for a balance between the 'easy singalong' hymns and the ones with the necessary thematic content for the day. Ideally we want them to be both singable and relevant, but that's not always possible. And under the current regime it appears that the ones we think of as singable -- the ones that most inspire the congregation, in fact -- are always the ones that turn out to be unsuitable for some specified or unspecified reason in the eyes of the PP.
Are we only in it for ourselves and our personal satisfaction?
I think I can honestly say 'no' to that one. Like anyone else, we do take pride in doing a job as well as we possibly can, and we love it when we 'get it right' and are TOLD we've got it right. But that's just called being human, isn't it? After all, if we don't take real joy in what we're doing, how can we possibly inspire a congregation? Pacabella and I still love to sing, but the joy gets increasingly tricky when all the most joyous hymns have been censored and we operate under a regime of threats, warnings, thinly veiled disapproval and what feels like arbitrary censorship, with a complete absence of either respect or trust.
Hope these musings are helpful to others.
Have I listened enough to what the wider community wants?
That's difficult, given that most of them leave the church at high speed after Mass without stopping for a coffee -- I can only actually talk to the ones that DO stop. I always, whenever I can, take time to talk to them, but they are only a very small percentage of the whole congregation. They are supportive, helpful, and critical when necessary, and that's fine -- but I know I'm not always hearing from everyone else. We also have a 'reality check' -- a retired choir member who now sits in the body of the church and reports back on what people are singing, and when.
Have I simply tried to impose what I see as 'best practice' without working to 'entice the congregation along'?
I don't know. One of us (not always me, and not every Sunday) talks to the congregation for a minute or two before Mass to explain what we're singing and why, to introduce any new music, and to remind them that we want to hear from them about what they like, what they don't like, and what they like but can't quite sing yet. There is some response to this -- but not enough to make me happy about it.
Do we bring in too many 'new pieces' (i.e. new to the congregation, as opposed to 'old or new')?
No, we don't. We are very careful about introducing new pieces, and try to stick to things that are demonstrably in the repertoire -- (that's why we keep a detailed record of what has been sung, and when). Even so, our PPC Chairman insisted that when she came along one Sunday she 'didn't know any of the hymns' -- possibly because she doesn't often attend the 10.15 Mass, which is the one where we sing (but is she unusual in this?)
Do we choose the things people want to sing?
Ah, there's the rub. We try for a balance between the 'easy singalong' hymns and the ones with the necessary thematic content for the day. Ideally we want them to be both singable and relevant, but that's not always possible. And under the current regime it appears that the ones we think of as singable -- the ones that most inspire the congregation, in fact -- are always the ones that turn out to be unsuitable for some specified or unspecified reason in the eyes of the PP.
Are we only in it for ourselves and our personal satisfaction?
I think I can honestly say 'no' to that one. Like anyone else, we do take pride in doing a job as well as we possibly can, and we love it when we 'get it right' and are TOLD we've got it right. But that's just called being human, isn't it? After all, if we don't take real joy in what we're doing, how can we possibly inspire a congregation? Pacabella and I still love to sing, but the joy gets increasingly tricky when all the most joyous hymns have been censored and we operate under a regime of threats, warnings, thinly veiled disapproval and what feels like arbitrary censorship, with a complete absence of either respect or trust.
Hope these musings are helpful to others.
Crumhorn
(Finding new uses for wonderful old ideas!)
(Finding new uses for wonderful old ideas!)
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oopsorganist
- Posts: 788
- Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 9:55 pm
- Location: Leeds
Well no one said it would be easy....
Just a quick (long) reply to Sid (cannot find his/her post about fluff, may have got the wrong thread)
About old V. new music.
It's very hard to find out what is new music. I do not want to bring in any thing which is not very mainstream or orthodox or good aesthetically. People should be able to go to Mass anywhere with the expectation of the music being universal or Catholic as it means....
So , yes, you are right we have an unsteady repertoire. Like Crumhorn I think has said somewhere, what to choose and for whom? We go from old standards that people will sing of which there are really only a few in our parish, to moderns which have usually been brought in by the primary school plus some real poor new ones, often jolly, which Father, bless, quite likes. The only thing that gets sung with gusto is I the Lord of Sea and Sky and this is beginning to tire...... that and the Our Father
In the present sad circumstances, it would be unwise to introduce too much new music as we have no singers who come to music practices. They never did come anyway. Left to choose for themselves, which had previously been the case for a number of years, before I put my two pennyworth in, there were some grim and inappropriate choices made. And some which would just about do. So I am sticking to trying to get a Gloria going and then an Alleluia and Great Amen. And then generally letting the congregation choose which again leads to some odd hymn choices.
What is new and what is acceptable? It is really hard to see what to do. And then I find things like Behold the Lamb of God and would love to try them but we do not have a way to bring them in.
And people are right about having to do your homework in a dispute/confrontation. I did not know there was anything called the Ubi Caritas before our Easter problems. Then I tried to get them to sing "Where is Love and Loving Kindness" but they all said that they did not know it and were not able to learn new music as they were not a choir. Then I tried to get them to sing "Lord You Have Come to the Water" by the Iona Community which I knew the primary school were doing for Lent (although not sure if it fitted) but they went ape and shouted at me. They wanted to sing "My soul is sad" which we learned two years ago but I did not feel that was appropriate for the washing of the feet and i suggested they do it during communion and hence all the hoo haa. They left saying that I had got my own way which is rubbish.
Have donwloaded the Glorias from this site. They are all beautiful and I hope one day to be able to play them in my parish. If the organ lasts that long!
About old V. new music.
It's very hard to find out what is new music. I do not want to bring in any thing which is not very mainstream or orthodox or good aesthetically. People should be able to go to Mass anywhere with the expectation of the music being universal or Catholic as it means....
So , yes, you are right we have an unsteady repertoire. Like Crumhorn I think has said somewhere, what to choose and for whom? We go from old standards that people will sing of which there are really only a few in our parish, to moderns which have usually been brought in by the primary school plus some real poor new ones, often jolly, which Father, bless, quite likes. The only thing that gets sung with gusto is I the Lord of Sea and Sky and this is beginning to tire...... that and the Our Father
In the present sad circumstances, it would be unwise to introduce too much new music as we have no singers who come to music practices. They never did come anyway. Left to choose for themselves, which had previously been the case for a number of years, before I put my two pennyworth in, there were some grim and inappropriate choices made. And some which would just about do. So I am sticking to trying to get a Gloria going and then an Alleluia and Great Amen. And then generally letting the congregation choose which again leads to some odd hymn choices.
What is new and what is acceptable? It is really hard to see what to do. And then I find things like Behold the Lamb of God and would love to try them but we do not have a way to bring them in.
And people are right about having to do your homework in a dispute/confrontation. I did not know there was anything called the Ubi Caritas before our Easter problems. Then I tried to get them to sing "Where is Love and Loving Kindness" but they all said that they did not know it and were not able to learn new music as they were not a choir. Then I tried to get them to sing "Lord You Have Come to the Water" by the Iona Community which I knew the primary school were doing for Lent (although not sure if it fitted) but they went ape and shouted at me. They wanted to sing "My soul is sad" which we learned two years ago but I did not feel that was appropriate for the washing of the feet and i suggested they do it during communion and hence all the hoo haa. They left saying that I had got my own way which is rubbish.
Have donwloaded the Glorias from this site. They are all beautiful and I hope one day to be able to play them in my parish. If the organ lasts that long!
uh oh!
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Tsume Tsuyu
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 9:40 am
- Location: UK
I've lost track as to which thread I should be posting to, but this is the thread where I talked about the 'mix' of hymns we aim for to suit our congregation. Sid (elsewhere) has made reference to this and to the danger of choosing 'old' hymns for an 'old' congregation. I don't think we do this. I do think that we're careful not to pull the rug out from under the older parishioners by taking away all the music they feel comfortable with. There are many who, despite the fact that we have been using songs like Gather Us In, God Has Chosen Me and countless others for 13 or 14 years, refuse to join in because they don't like "that new music". If we take away everything they feel comforable with, that won't force them to embrace the new music but, rather, will simply leave them feeling uncomfortable and unhappy about the music in their parish. Equally, my daughter has grown up with many four-square hymns, but would profess not to really "know them" although she'll sing them at a push. If our diet consisted of trad. hymns, her interest would be waning. I agree with Sid that there are beautiful and awful old hymns, just as there are beautiful and awful contemporary hymns. I do feel that, in choosing music, we should be first choosing songs that reflect the readings. And the musical style as well as the words needs to do that. The way we plan is to read through the readings and then throw our various hymn suggestions into the melting pot. From the pot, we try to choose hymns at most fit the beginning and end of Mass and those that are more suited for the procession of the gifts and for Communion. We then look at what we've picked and consider whether there is too much 'new' or too much 'old' and, if either seems the case, we have another rummage in the pot.
Where I think we can introduce new music and meet less criticism or complaint is in the choice of Mass settings. Our congregation seems to accept that these will change regularly and that new settings will be introduced. The Mass settings and Gloria settings don't receive nearly as many comments as the hymn choices do. I suppose this could be because the congregation sees the hymns as belonging to them and the parts of the Mass to the choir. This is something we are striving to redress by always making sure there is an invitation to join in with the parts of the Mass.
Planning ain't easy!
Where I think we can introduce new music and meet less criticism or complaint is in the choice of Mass settings. Our congregation seems to accept that these will change regularly and that new settings will be introduced. The Mass settings and Gloria settings don't receive nearly as many comments as the hymn choices do. I suppose this could be because the congregation sees the hymns as belonging to them and the parts of the Mass to the choir. This is something we are striving to redress by always making sure there is an invitation to join in with the parts of the Mass.
Planning ain't easy!
TT
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Merseysider
- Posts: 430
- Joined: Fri May 07, 2004 11:21 pm
Re: Well no one said it would be easy....
oopsorganist wrote: It's very hard to find out what is new music....
Come to summer school and see.
oopsorganist wrote: ...and would love to try them but we do not have a way to bring them in.
You might enjoy the music leaders workshop
oopsorganist wrote: And people are right about having to do your homework...
Apart from learning a thing or two, you will probably enjoy yourself and make a few new friends into the bargain.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch…
Crumhorn,
Christ tells us to "turn the other cheek" - which some commentators explain is more about passive resistance than about a masochistic tendancy. I suggest that you do this: choose texts that you know will get past the PP's inspection, and then use alternative tunes, such as those suggested in the One hymn to the tune of another (isihac) thread…
Just one per week would do, then he'd not know which it was going to be.
Christ tells us to "turn the other cheek" - which some commentators explain is more about passive resistance than about a masochistic tendancy. I suggest that you do this: choose texts that you know will get past the PP's inspection, and then use alternative tunes, such as those suggested in the One hymn to the tune of another (isihac) thread…
Just one per week would do, then he'd not know which it was going to be.
Benevenio.
Re: Meanwhile, back at the ranch…
Benevenio wrote:Crumhorn,
choose texts that you know will get past the PP's inspection, and then use alternative tunes, such as those suggested in the One hymn to the tune of another (isihac) thread…
Hmm...
God of mercy ... clap clap ... and compassion ... clap clap ... look with pity upon me ... clap clap
Actually, to the traditional tune that's always one of the Lentern treats for the traditionalists in my congregation - I'll look for other opportunities to slip it in (e.g. Prodigal Son Sunday).
It's not a generation gap, it's a taste gap.
There's so much going on in this thread, I've tried a post and got all tangled up. So, just to tidy things up a bit, isihac is demystified here, keeping it dead on-topic.
Sid goes on about old and new hymns here.
I might try to post something relevant here later, but at the moment...BANG! (Ouch) BANG! (Ouch) BANG! (Ouch)...
Dot
Sid goes on about old and new hymns here.
I might try to post something relevant here later, but at the moment...BANG! (Ouch) BANG! (Ouch) BANG! (Ouch)...
Dot
Thank you, Dot, for those helpful links. Please use them folks.
I have re-read all the posts to this thread and, IMHO, they are all pretty much on-topic (i.e. they respond to Crumhorn's update about his parish situation), though the focus has got a little fuzzy recently.
If at any time you aren't on-topic, don't be shy about starting a new thread.
Musicus
I have re-read all the posts to this thread and, IMHO, they are all pretty much on-topic (i.e. they respond to Crumhorn's update about his parish situation), though the focus has got a little fuzzy recently.
If at any time you aren't on-topic, don't be shy about starting a new thread.
Musicus
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oopsorganist
- Posts: 788
- Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 9:55 pm
- Location: Leeds
well no one said it would be easy
Sorry
Think it may be me mixing up the threads.
Just got over excited by hearing others with similar problems and issues of the old and new repertoire. Not very reasoned debate. Sos.
Will definitely come to next year's summer school. but am already booked this year for a hol. in Devon. Anything else considered including listenings in other parishes with thriving music!
Sorry will try to stay on topic. It is Crumhorn's problem thread really.
Think it may be me mixing up the threads.
Just got over excited by hearing others with similar problems and issues of the old and new repertoire. Not very reasoned debate. Sos.
Will definitely come to next year's summer school. but am already booked this year for a hol. in Devon. Anything else considered including listenings in other parishes with thriving music!
Sorry will try to stay on topic. It is Crumhorn's problem thread really.
uh oh!