Well, no one said it would be easy...

[Crumhorn]

Greetings to all of you. Some may remember my post a while back about the truly desperate musical situation in our parish. At the cost of two or three months of raised blood pressure and a due portion of humble pie I thought we now had something resembling an open and honest dialogue between everyone in the parish about music.

Except that we don't...

As part of our 'new start' we agreed that we would plan the music 3 weeks ahead, taking note of any particular themes that the PP wished to highlight in that week's liturgy. In theory this is fine. In practice he often doesn't tell us in time, and recently the 'themes' have diverged quite radically from the actual content of the liturgy, not to mention being so divinely cerebral that it would take a greater talent than mine to see any musical connections at all. Example, for 11th Sunday of the Year "the Homily theme will be the mystery of God's call - calling us to be 'Co-workers of the Truth' as Christ's Priestly People". Oh, and apparently hymns such as 'Will you come and follow me' are not appropriate... so on one Sunday three hymns we have already chosen have been rejected -- 'Praise we our God with joy' is to replace 'Gather us in' (where, so I am told, the 'eucharistic theology is by no means satisfactory'), 'Lord accept the gifts we offer' instead of 'Will you come and follow me', and 'Love divine' or 'Jesus the very thought of thee' instead of 'Here I am, Lord'. (Anyone see a pattern emerging here?)

When I tackled him about this I was also roundly informed that 'Now in this Banquet' is 'deeply heretical' -- and so, apparently, are 'about half the hymns in "Laudate"'. Apparently 'the bishops are deeply concerned about this.'

Errm... Did I miss something, somewhere?

Last night was our annual Parish AGM (immediately following Mass) and despite my best efforts the PP wouldn't leave either me or the organist alone in pursuing the content of his letter -- meaning that I was in less control of my temper than I might have been given more time. At the end of a fairly hot discussion it was made very clear to me that we shouldn't bother our little heads about choosing the music -- just practice it. Or, presumably, be excommunicated for heresy?

A recent SSG observer at our liturgy commented that the music was OK (it wasn't one of our better days) but the presider was a cause for some concern -- rather uninspired and uninspiring. It seems the same infection is about to strike the music.

Yesterday evening I was seriously considering taking a holiday -- from the parish and possibly from the church as well. Both the organist and I face massive challenges in our working lives at the moment, and we really don't need this kind of aggro in the one area that should support all our other efforts. Now, I'm not so sure -- but still pretty baffled to find an appropriate or effective response.

I'm not looking for easy answers -- there aren't any, short (perhaps) of homicide -- but I would ask your prayers for me, for our organist in particular, and for the other members of our music group (including, ironically, our two most recent recruits aged 9 and 11 -- what will THEY make of these Victorian hymns?)

[musicus]

Hello again Crumhorn,

I'm sure we're all very sorry to hear all this. There is so much here to reflect on, and I for one am not going to rush in with any 'easy answers', other than to assure you of much prayer.

However, I do have one suggestion to be going on with, regarding the following:

I was also roundly informed that 'Now in this Banquet' is 'deeply heretical' -- and so, apparently, are 'about half the hymns in "Laudate"'. Apparently 'the bishops are deeply concerned about this.'

I would consult with your diocesan Director of Music (also editor and publisher of 'Laudate'). I'm sure he'd give you a straight answer about this. Perhaps other forum members with ecclesiastical friends in high places will have something to say about this point too.

It's a wonder any of the laity ever do anything for some priests. Perhaps we should just leave them to it.

Musicus

[Gabriel]

Crumhorn

without any irony I think many on this list would welcome a PP who planned his homily in advance and took an active interest in musical choices. Unfortunately from what you say he seems not to regard what the Church provides, the Liturgy, as the source for either his preaching or the other elements, such as, music.

Like Musicus I am perturbed by

I was also roundly informed that 'Now in this Banquet' is 'deeply heretical' -- and so, apparently, are 'about half the hymns in "Laudate"'. Apparently 'the bishops are deeply concerned about this.'

Let's be honest this is a manipulative statement. "I don't like something and big friends don't either" might be one way of translating it.

As someone who comes across a variety of bishops more than most I am not aware that bishops are deeply concerned that half the hymns in Laudate are heretical.

One thought on 'heresy' - it is not the function of a hymn to present doctrine whole and complete - that's the point of the Catchecism. Just because "Now in this banquet" does include the full richness of Catholic theology of the Eucharist does not make it 'heretical'.

I agree with Musicus contact your diocesan adviser.

But I would also consider writing to your bishop. I would give a succinct account - a little back history but mostly what you put above - I think as you suggest the facts mostly speak for themselves. I would also give an idea of the principles you work to in choosing music - i.e. (through reflection on scripture and texts of the liturgy to choose music that will engage people of all ages in the celebration of Mass). I would definitely include the line about 'concerns of bishops'. Finally I would send a copy to your parish priest.

I am not sure that this will resolve your situation - even if the bishop says "these are my beloved musicians - listen to them"! Parish priests do not always follow the advice of their bishops. But at the heart of this he seems to be making an unfounded accusation that he is using to impose both his taste and a model of liturgy that is rooted in another age.

Gabriel

[presbyter]

Perhaps one doesn't always automatically grab "G & S" as a foundation document for the renewal of the liturgy but there is a very sound principle expressed therein. Applying it to liturgical song .....

Are they written/composed in a suitable idiom which takes account of the signs of the times and speaks in an “intelligible” way to contemporary societies? (Gaudium et Spes 4)

Perhaps this priest just cannot cope with living in the modern world and constantly seeks the security of his childhood - or even the "myth" of a Catholic culture of bygone years? I don't know - but don't fight with him - try to help him and be patient.

Why not suggest he goes to the Summer School?

[Crumhorn]

Thanks to all of you for your replies. I have tried very hard to love this man -- and I do admire him for the way he deals with people facing crises -- but we have never, and I suspect will never agree about the importance of music and the need to make it accessible to the WIDEST possible audience. I was delighted when our two youngest choir members joined us a couple of weeks ago, because they quite happily tell us what they know, and what they don't know -- and can even point us to hymns the schools are singing that we haven't learned yet! The PP constantly tells us how important it is to engage young people, yet when I made this point to him he was almost totally dismissive. In the words of H G Wells 'What can one do?'

What I HAVE done is to contact my diocesan liturgy office and ask them THEIR opinion of 'Laudate' (since I couldn't get hold of the musical advisor himself). I spoke to an old friend there (a former PP in my parish, with a considerable musical reputation himself) and he assured me that he is unaware of any 'heresy' in Laudate. that it is used routinely in the cathedral, and that the only problems they have with it involve the politically correct alterations to older hymns -- which he fully understands were made to satisfy the American market. Neither of us commented on the misprints, but I usually find them more amusing than irritating...!

So tomorrow I have to face the man again, and watch for the usual indifference or disapproval as we try to raise the most joyous sound that we can from ourselves and our congregation to offer to God. It's a comfort to know that someone else out there is willing us on -- so thank you.

[pews2]

Not sure how much this will help, but I found it on the web:

'There was a feud between a Pastor and his Choir Director. It seems the first hint of trouble came when the Pastor preached on dedicating yourselves to service and the Choir Director chose to sing: "I Shall Not Be Moved."

Trying to believe it was a coincidence, the Pastor put the incident behind him. The next Sunday he preached on giving. Afterwards, the choir squirmed as the director led them in the hymn: "Jesus Paid It All."

By this time, the Pastor was losing his temper. Sunday morning attendance swelled as the tension between the two built. A large crowd showed up the next week to hear his sermon on the sin of gossiping. Would you believe the Choir Director selected: "I Love To Tell The Story"?

There was no turning back. The following Sunday the Pastor told the congregation that unless something changed he was considering resignation.The entire church gasped when the Choir Director led them in: "Why Not Tonight."

Truthfully, no one was surprised when the Pastor resigned a week later, explaining that Jesus had led him there and Jesus was leading him away. The Choir Director could not resist: "What a Friend We Have in Jesus." '

-------------------------
But seriously, don't you require a minimum of encouragement, or convincing explanation, from your PP? Are there no consequences for PPs who are unable or unwilling to provide that minimum? And aren't the consequences at least partly in the hands of those serving the PP?

[oopsorganist]

dear Crumhorn

My heart goes out to you, for we are in similar but not same battle.

When I first read your post i thought you were t'other side of our battle on line and i had a little panic attack of my own.

We have probs over choice of music (control battle i think) about power really isn't it?

Personally I like the old hymns, the more miserable the better. And slow too , gives me a chance to play all the notes. I don't want them to die and I want my children to hear them.

However, this I find is not what people want to sing and when given the chance to choose the hymn (we try to involve by letting families choose the hymns sometimes) they always go for simple happy clappy. Even the pensioners are pleased when the guitars come out "Ooo are we having a folk mass?" When , like today, I play what I think are classics "OH Godhead hid devoutly I adore Thee", no one sings anyway. And I believe that we should be moving away from the 4 hymn sandwich anyway and doing Gospel Acclamation, Psalms etc (whihc is why my parish is at war, I told them this and the "choir" refused to sing over Easter and stood in silence making a protest).

But the emotional energy drain this war produces!

I send you all my love through cyber space and pray that you do what is best for you. I made a list of all the reasons for being involved in the music of my parish and the reasons why I wanted to leave and tried to analyse it like that. My husband wishes I would leave as he hears all the nonsense. IN the end I have stayed because I really like my PP and he needs lots of support as he is a bit dotty. He loves modern hymns and including the children and would sing "He's got the whole world in his hands" every week if he could. I contacted my diocese but even with the e mail in my hands I got arguments and abuse and time wasting. And in Church too !!! Quakers don't have music, very sensible.

Can't someone make a tape for parishes with stuff on to share? It could be an interesting project.

[Merseysider]

As parish musicians we have to learn tact and diplomacy (OK, I'm not much good at either) to keep our assemblies on board and we have to develop good working relationships with our clergy if we're ever going to get anywhere. Surely the same must be true of parish priests.

I'd be interested to know our Crumhorn's PP gets on with other parish groups. We had a case up here, a couple of years ago, of a parish priest closing down the UCM as it was not inclusive.

So tomorrow I have to face the man again, and watch for the usual indifference or disapproval as we try to raise the most joyous sound that we can from ourselves and our congregation to offer to God.

If I attived at that stage I'd be seriously thinking of moving on. Perhaps I'm lucky, I have a good relationship with my PP which continues well into the liturgy: an occasional smile from him when he sings a bit wrong or I miss a cue. Even with all the encouragement in the world, what we do is a demanding part-time voluntary job. Not sure I'd be putting up with Crumhorn's situation.

[Merseysider]

Dear Oops,

Smack me down if I'm interfering or out of order but I wonder if there's a gap in your repertoire which, if filled, might help to smooth things out between what appear to be warring factions. Your parish seems to veer between "O Godhead hid..." and "He's got the whole world..." Both fine, I'm sure.

But there's a huge amount of modern music out there which could bridge that gap: items which are decades newer than "He's got the whole world..." and therefore might appeal to your parish priest and which have a musicality not a million miles from "O Godhead hid..." which your choir might enjoy (with parts for them too).

If you're looking for samples of the music I mean, try CDs of St Thomas More Group Greatest Hits Vols 1 and 2 – some beauties of all styles on there. (Pub OCP, available from Decani Music.)

Why not come along to Summer School and see – if nothing else, you can have five days of singing, hearing and praying all sorts of glorious music without any battle other than personal likes and dislikes. It's quite a break for otherwise baffled, befuddled and banjaxed musicians.

That's me being calm. The usual me would kick out the "choir" who sound as though they have no concept of ministry or service.

Wishing you every success,

Merseysider

[Crumhorn]

Dear Oops,

Actually, we're in the same battle against different people. I don't object to the old hymns as such -- I just don't want them as an exclusive diet, because that locks out the younger people who are our future.

Nor do I want an exclusive diet of new hymns -- because that locks out the older members of our congregation, who need their comfort zone.

So -- as Merseysider suggests -- we try to provide a spectrum of old and new that will touch everyone at some point in the Mass, even if we can't reach all of them, all the time.

However, as I've said before, this does lay us open to the risk of irritating everyone at least some of the time!

This morning was embarrassing for me because the first hymn -- changed at the last minute by our PP -- was one I didn't actually know. Some people did, and joined in. Others busked enthusiastically. I was just confused -- but probably looked as if I was deliberately trying to sabotage it. A case in point for not changing hymns at the last minute...!!

All the best to you, Oops, and I'm sorry you are getting so much hassle from the people who should be supporting you most. They need to remember that all of us -- priest and choir alike -- are not there to satisfy our own predelictions or our own tastes. We are, or should be, the servants of our congregation -- which means listening to what everyone wants, and doing our best to meet their needs. You're trying to do just that -- so don't give up! And yes, you should be trying to sing the liturgy, not just bolting hymns on around it. We do both, for our sins, and I'm happy to say have been able to do so for years. We even, thanks to our organist, have three mass settings of our very own! So, once again, don't give up -- you are on the right track, and I know the Liturgy Office would agree with what you're trying to do -- and so, I'm sure, would the very large majority of people on this forum.

All the best,

[Crumhorn]

pews2 said:

But seriously, don't you require a minimum of encouragement, or convincing explanation, from your PP? Are there no consequences for PPs who are unable or unwilling to provide that minimum? And aren't the consequences at least partly in the hands of those serving the PP?

That's true, pews2, but what 'consequences' would be appropriate? Sure, we could all walk out, but how would that serve our congregation -- people who I love, respect, and wish to help? We could make a big public fuss, but for most people that would put us automatically in the wrong -- because I'm afraid that PP is always right, even when he isn't. I could try private debate, but that now seems impossible -- all I get is the big stick (e.g. about 'deeply heretical' hymns like 'Now in this Banquet') or veiled threats which imply that he's quite ready to sack the lot of us -- which also means that if we DID walk out, he'd probably feel he'd achieved his object. On the other hand, our organist and I both have a living to earn and we don't get paid for all the time we waste confirming that what we are doing is exactly what the Liturgy Office have asked us to do -- and then being told not to do it anyway...!

[Merseysider]

Have you tried knocking your head against a brick wall? It might be a more positive experience and much less painful.

[Crumhorn]

BANG! (Ouch) BANG! (Ouch) BANG! (Ouch)...


Hmm...

Know what, Merseysider -- you're right!

[Tsume Tsuyu]

All of this makes me realise just how lucky we are in our parish to have a priest who trusts us. He never interferes with the music and trusts us not to do anything completely outrageous. In his almost eleven years in the parish he has only once asked us not to use a hymn again. There are one or two we use occasionally that he grimaces at but, mostly, he is very complimentary and particularly appreciative of the fact that so much of our music is 'home-grown', composed by members of the choir.

Straddling some of what both Oops and Crumhorn have said about choice of music, I thought that, this morning, we had it about right at Mass. It's taken some time to find the right balance when planning music, particularly for the 'Sunday Congregation' who are, in the main, the older generation. This morning's music consisted of a couple of traditional hymns (Blest Are The Pure In Heart for the procession of the gifts and Christ Is Made A Sure Foundation to go out to), Bernadette Farrell's O God, You Search Me at Communion and the Taize 'O Lord, Hear My Prayer' to come in to. We sang Chris Walker's Glastonbury Acclamations (written in 1984, I think, so not really 'new') and a terrific new Gloria, composed by one of our number. The psalm we used this morning, and the setting of the Agnus Dei were composed by our MD. I'd say that was a good selection, with something for everyone. By aiming for that fairly balanced mix most weeks, we find we are winning people over. Older folk, who want to hear the trad. hymns are getting to know the more contemporary music too and even profess to like some of the 'new' hymns! The younger congregation members can relate to the newer music, but are being kept in touch with some of the hymns of our tradition. And, as a bonus, everyone is learning some brand new, hot-off-the-press music.

I wouldn't say we always get it right and, in the early days of our choir (and of group planning sessions), we found ourselves choosing all new music and avoiding anything vaguely traditional. We're more disciplined now. We've come to realise that, as Merseysider suggests on another thread, we need to meet people where they are and gently lead them. I think we've learnt by our mistakes. Swamping the congregation with new music because we were so excited about it was a mistake but, for a while, we forgot about the rich treasure of 'traditional' hymns and about the people we were serving. When the people gently reminded us, we took a step back and I think our music now reflects the fact that we do think about the congregation we're serving.

To go back to where I began, the more I hear about the experiences of others, the more blessed I think we are to have a parish priest who appreciates what we do.

[Crumhorn]

Hi, TT, and thanks for your contribution. You're so right, and so fortunate. I have no problem with our congregation -- in fact I think they're mostly absolutely terrific. There's a lovely bunch who stand behind us and sing almost as strongly as we do (which does have the unfortunate effect of making the moaners complain that 'the choir sing too loud'!) And there are sturdy souls scattered around the church who will resolutely sing out even when others stand with mouths resolutely shut. But I have a special affection for those who can't sing, but love the music and are not afraid to tell us when we've got things wrong, as well as complimenting us sincerely when we've got it right. We ALL need to KNOW when we've got it wrong, and how, or we can't grow -- and we all need the freedom to make mistakes in ORDER to grow. I don't think anyone has the right to impose musical choices on a congregation -- me least of all. We have to get it right for THEM -- though that doesn't stop us from leading them gently in the direction of good music and good liturgical practice. And nothing helps more than a PP who gives you trust and encouragement every step of the way.

Sounds like you have a really good thing going, TT -- long may it continue and may the hair on your PP's toes never fall out!

All the best,