Ah
Some reassurance that others drift out during services. I did feel bad about my leaving a Mass. But there you are.
Salve Regina is OK in Latin.
As is Mass in Latin if people feel they need that. Keep it coherent.
But when the main acclamations are in Latin in an otherwise English Mass it does make you wonder if those responses have any significance at all at all.
Yes the Kyrie is Greek. Why is that I wonder? What is it in Latin?
Liturgical Tourism
Moderators: Dom Perignon, Casimir
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oopsorganist
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Re: Liturgical Tourism
uh oh!
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Southern Comfort
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Re: Liturgical Tourism
oopsorganist wrote:Yes the Kyrie is Greek. Why is that I wonder? What is it in Latin?
Kyrie eleison = Miserere, Domine
Christe eleison = Miserere, Christe
That's why the Anglican "Lord, have mercy upon us" is not an exact translation. It would need to be Kyrie eleison himas (cf. the Good Friday Reproaches) = Domine, miserere nobis. himas means "to/on us" (Greek dative pronoun)
One theory why the Kyrie remained in Greek is that some of the settings that we use today (e.g. Kyrie XVI) were already in existence at the time the liturgy went from Greek into Latin, and so they simply kept them.
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Howard Baker
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Re: Liturgical Tourism
The Greek "himas" is in fact in the accusative. It's the Latin pronoun that's dative.
Re: Liturgical Tourism
Howard Baker wrote:The Greek "himas" is in fact in the accusative. It's the Latin pronoun that's dative.
I wish the forum had a 'like' button. What an erudite bunch we are!
Re: Liturgical Tourism
Southern Comfort wrote:One theory why the Kyrie remained in Greek is that some of the settings that we use today (e.g. Kyrie XVI) were already in existence at the time the liturgy went from Greek into Latin, and so they simply kept them.
I think the chronology might be wrong for that. The Kyrie isn't mentioned in the Latin Rite Mass until the beginning of the 6th century (and Egeria in the 4th century has to explain what it is for her Roman readers). By the sound of things it was introduced wholesale from the East (as a litany of petitionary prayer), because it had been a successful innovation in the eastern liturgy, and they simply kept the linguistic form that had arisen there. That means the Kyrie at the start of the Mass is the vestige of the thing reintroduced in the 1970 Missal, namely the universal prayer.
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Southern Comfort
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Re: Liturgical Tourism
mcb wrote:Southern Comfort wrote:One theory why the Kyrie remained in Greek is that some of the settings that we use today (e.g. Kyrie XVI) were already in existence at the time the liturgy went from Greek into Latin, and so they simply kept them.
I think the chronology might be wrong for that. The Kyrie isn't mentioned in the Latin Rite Mass until the beginning of the 6th century (and Egeria in the 4th century has to explain what it is for her Roman readers). By the sound of things it was introduced wholesale from the East (as a litany of petitionary prayer), because it had been a successful innovation in the eastern liturgy, and they simply kept the linguistic form that had arisen there. That means the Kyrie at the start of the Mass is the vestige of the thing reintroduced in the 1970 Missal, namely the universal prayer.
I agree. I did say that it was one theory. I think another more likely one, and that ties in with the universal prayer that you mentioned, is that the Kyrie was already in use in the intercessions in the precursor of the Divine Office before the end of the 5th century, as indeed it is today. It simply migrated into the Mass.
There's something rather good about singing a simple Kyrie and thinking that Christians have perhaps been singing this or a similar Lord, have mercy since almost the time of the Lord himself.
Re: Liturgical Tourism
Oops might have walked out of this morning's Mass in Rotterdam Cathedral, but I stayed for the full hour and 20 minutes of it!
The Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus Dei were all sung, in Greek/Latin, to the Missa Bonum est Confiteri Domino by Herman Strategier, of whom I had not heard but found afterwards that he was a Dutch composer who lived from 1912-1988 and that the Mass was written in 1953. I found it very hard to identify a style or period and wasn't enirely sure I liked it, but I suppose the title fitted in well with the readings of the day. The welcome, Preface (with the responses before it) and Lord's Prayer were all chanted and a cantor sang the verses of the Psalm and Gospel Acclamation. There were hymns in Dutch at the entrance, at the Offertory and after Communion, led by the choir but with many of the congregation attempting to join in as well: I didn't know the tunes, so joined in as best I could.
If that sounds a bit strict and formal for Oops' taste, then it's worth adding that there were more homely touches as well. I've heard it said of some priests that they had at one time wanted to be actors, and I felt that that could apply to the main celebrant today: he delivered a fine sermon with great punch, neatly relating the readings to the Year of Mercy and plugging an event associated with it a few days ahead. He also gave a very warm introduction, welcoming as a guest concelebrant a priest from Costa Rica and explaining that the deacon was celebrating 121/2 years at the Cathedral. He also seemed very relaxed about asking whether there were any takers for Children's Liturgy, for which a few children did emerge. The Intercessions included prayers for the deacon. The response "Lord, graciously hear us" was also given after the pause for silent prayer.
There was a fair amount of ceremony, which was mostly given enough time to make its point and not rushed. The procession included about ten servers in cassock and surplice, many of them carrying candles or thuribles, and also one man in a suit without tie, who gave the first two readings, intentions for the intercessions and notices at the end, otherwise remaining on the sanctuary with the servers, unlike the cantor, who emerged from the congregation and returned there after doing her bit. The deacon received the blessing from the priest before reading the Gospel and only after that, when he began carrying the Book of the Gospels to the ambo, did the Gospel Acclamation start. After the Gospel the deacon, accompanied by several servers, carried the book in procession to a stand in front of the sanctuary to one side of it, though in silence: no repeated "Alleluia"! Half the servers came forward and stood or knelt (I can't remember which) in front of the altar, with candles or incense, during the Eucharistic Prayer. The only noticeable overlap betwen music and ceremony was that the priests, deacon and servers received Communion while the choir were still singing the Agnus Dei.
The congregation (and choir) sang the Mystery of Faith and also sang "Amen"s during, not just after, the doxology at the end of the Eucharistic Prayer. After that, the congregation were invited to Communion (one kind only): their response did not include anything about "entering under my roof" and the responses before the preface were not a literal translation of the Latin either, so I don't know whether the Dutch Missal has not been required to adhere as rigidly to the Latin as the English one or whether they were being rebellious. Although the Mass booklet included the instruction "Sit until 'Pray, brothers and ...' Then stand until the Sign of Peace", most people knelt during the Eucharistic Prayer.
At the end of Mass a member of the Parish Council gave a speech thanking the deacon for all his work over the past 121/2 years and making a not wholly complimentary remark about those who had been videoing the Mass on smartphones from the front row, presumably for the occasion, which I must admit had been the main factor disturbing my enjoyment of the Mass.
The Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus Dei were all sung, in Greek/Latin, to the Missa Bonum est Confiteri Domino by Herman Strategier, of whom I had not heard but found afterwards that he was a Dutch composer who lived from 1912-1988 and that the Mass was written in 1953. I found it very hard to identify a style or period and wasn't enirely sure I liked it, but I suppose the title fitted in well with the readings of the day. The welcome, Preface (with the responses before it) and Lord's Prayer were all chanted and a cantor sang the verses of the Psalm and Gospel Acclamation. There were hymns in Dutch at the entrance, at the Offertory and after Communion, led by the choir but with many of the congregation attempting to join in as well: I didn't know the tunes, so joined in as best I could.
If that sounds a bit strict and formal for Oops' taste, then it's worth adding that there were more homely touches as well. I've heard it said of some priests that they had at one time wanted to be actors, and I felt that that could apply to the main celebrant today: he delivered a fine sermon with great punch, neatly relating the readings to the Year of Mercy and plugging an event associated with it a few days ahead. He also gave a very warm introduction, welcoming as a guest concelebrant a priest from Costa Rica and explaining that the deacon was celebrating 121/2 years at the Cathedral. He also seemed very relaxed about asking whether there were any takers for Children's Liturgy, for which a few children did emerge. The Intercessions included prayers for the deacon. The response "Lord, graciously hear us" was also given after the pause for silent prayer.
There was a fair amount of ceremony, which was mostly given enough time to make its point and not rushed. The procession included about ten servers in cassock and surplice, many of them carrying candles or thuribles, and also one man in a suit without tie, who gave the first two readings, intentions for the intercessions and notices at the end, otherwise remaining on the sanctuary with the servers, unlike the cantor, who emerged from the congregation and returned there after doing her bit. The deacon received the blessing from the priest before reading the Gospel and only after that, when he began carrying the Book of the Gospels to the ambo, did the Gospel Acclamation start. After the Gospel the deacon, accompanied by several servers, carried the book in procession to a stand in front of the sanctuary to one side of it, though in silence: no repeated "Alleluia"! Half the servers came forward and stood or knelt (I can't remember which) in front of the altar, with candles or incense, during the Eucharistic Prayer. The only noticeable overlap betwen music and ceremony was that the priests, deacon and servers received Communion while the choir were still singing the Agnus Dei.
The congregation (and choir) sang the Mystery of Faith and also sang "Amen"s during, not just after, the doxology at the end of the Eucharistic Prayer. After that, the congregation were invited to Communion (one kind only): their response did not include anything about "entering under my roof" and the responses before the preface were not a literal translation of the Latin either, so I don't know whether the Dutch Missal has not been required to adhere as rigidly to the Latin as the English one or whether they were being rebellious. Although the Mass booklet included the instruction "Sit until 'Pray, brothers and ...' Then stand until the Sign of Peace", most people knelt during the Eucharistic Prayer.
At the end of Mass a member of the Parish Council gave a speech thanking the deacon for all his work over the past 121/2 years and making a not wholly complimentary remark about those who had been videoing the Mass on smartphones from the front row, presumably for the occasion, which I must admit had been the main factor disturbing my enjoyment of the Mass.
Re: Liturgical Tourism
My liturgical tourism last Sunday was also a liturgical sentimental journey. I first visited the church of Our Lady of Fatima, Alblasserdam, Netherlands in the 1960s, when it was newly opened and built in accordance with the latest ideas coming out of Vatican II. It is oval in shape, with the altar in the middle and chairs in place of pews. I'd also visited it several times in the 1970s, but last weekend's visit will probably turn out to be my last, as it's due to close in November, just over half a century since it was built!
It's now part of the Dordrecht parish, which includes two other churches as well, and is a victim not just of a shortage of priests but also a declining congregation. The shortage of priests was felt in that that the service was a Liturgy of the Word with Communion, though it lasted well over an hour and so had no sense of being a poor relation to the Mass. It was led by a deacon, who preached an interesting sermon based on the Zachariah reading of the day and relating it to Michelangelo's painting in the Sistine Chapel and hidden messages in it about the corruption of the Church in Michelangelo's time.
An organist accompanied the singing, which was well supported, and two of the tunes were familiar to me: Old Hundredth for both the opening and Collection and Ellacombe for the "Gloria", another hymn paraphrase. A hymn was also used in place of the Responsorial Psalm. The Kyrie was sung, as were the Alleluia before the Gospel, another acclamation (not an Alleluia) after it and the responses to the Intercessions. After Communion there was a hymn followed by a prayer with congregational responses and then, after the notices, a final hymn.
Clearly the congregation of about 35 were making the best of the situation they were faced with and the limited resources at their disposal. Coffee was served at the back of the church afterwards to help maintain a sense of community. sadly, I don't remember seeing any young people there.
As it was Father's Day, there were prayers included for fathers, even though the deacon made it clear that that was a secular celebration, and flowers were handed to all the men present - even to me, and even though I admitted afterwards that I have no children I was allowed to keep mine!
It's now part of the Dordrecht parish, which includes two other churches as well, and is a victim not just of a shortage of priests but also a declining congregation. The shortage of priests was felt in that that the service was a Liturgy of the Word with Communion, though it lasted well over an hour and so had no sense of being a poor relation to the Mass. It was led by a deacon, who preached an interesting sermon based on the Zachariah reading of the day and relating it to Michelangelo's painting in the Sistine Chapel and hidden messages in it about the corruption of the Church in Michelangelo's time.
An organist accompanied the singing, which was well supported, and two of the tunes were familiar to me: Old Hundredth for both the opening and Collection and Ellacombe for the "Gloria", another hymn paraphrase. A hymn was also used in place of the Responsorial Psalm. The Kyrie was sung, as were the Alleluia before the Gospel, another acclamation (not an Alleluia) after it and the responses to the Intercessions. After Communion there was a hymn followed by a prayer with congregational responses and then, after the notices, a final hymn.
Clearly the congregation of about 35 were making the best of the situation they were faced with and the limited resources at their disposal. Coffee was served at the back of the church afterwards to help maintain a sense of community. sadly, I don't remember seeing any young people there.
As it was Father's Day, there were prayers included for fathers, even though the deacon made it clear that that was a secular celebration, and flowers were handed to all the men present - even to me, and even though I admitted afterwards that I have no children I was allowed to keep mine!
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oopsorganist
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- Location: Leeds
Re: Liturgical Tourism
Still travelling ?
A sort of connection to Liturgical Tourism, I was searching on the Leeds Website for a church with wheelchair access and I was a little put out when I realised that not all churches in the Diocese are wheel chair friendly - unless their websites are not up to date? It seems a lack in this age of grants for ramps and so on.....it was a bit of an awkward website to navigate too with only four churches per page. If it had been easier to navigate I might have counted how may had wheelchair symbol but the impression I got was about half.
A sort of connection to Liturgical Tourism, I was searching on the Leeds Website for a church with wheelchair access and I was a little put out when I realised that not all churches in the Diocese are wheel chair friendly - unless their websites are not up to date? It seems a lack in this age of grants for ramps and so on.....it was a bit of an awkward website to navigate too with only four churches per page. If it had been easier to navigate I might have counted how may had wheelchair symbol but the impression I got was about half.
uh oh!
Re: Liturgical Tourism
Yes, Oops, still travelling but due back at my own church next weekend. I'm at the moment in Roden, in the north of the Netherlands, where priests seem to be in even shorter supply than elsewhere. As a result, it was no surprise at all to find another Liturgy of the Word with Eucharist (LWWE) this morning, in another modern church, this time hexagonal rather than oval and with the sanctuary on one of the sides. As far as I could gather, the celebrant, presumably a deacon, was visiting from the local provincial capital, Assen, about ten miles away, where he is a military chaplain.
Accompaniment was provided on the organ by a member of the congregation who normally regards himself as a pianist and so doesn't use the pedals, and the singing was led by two young ladies one acting as animateur (or should that be animatrix?). As I arrived I was handed two books, one with the usual Mass responses as well as a good number of hymns with music, and another specifically for LWWE use, so once I'd worked out which was which joining in was quite easy.
There was no Gloria to my surprise, maybe because the Kyrie was replaced by a long paraphrased version of one of the Penitential Acts by Huub Oosterhuis and Bernard Huijbers. Oosterhuis also wrote most of the other hymns used and those he didn't were in a similar style: used for the opening, collection, post-Communion and recession. The Psalm was also sung to a paraphrased setting (can't remember if it was Oosterhuis or not); instead of an Alleluia before the Gospel we had an acclamation, not an Alleluia, after it; the response to the intercessions was also sung. In place of the Eucharistic Prayer there was a spoken prayer of thanksgiving, with congregational responses, after the Blessed Sacrament was brought to the altar.
I didn't count the congregation but would estimate about 35-40 and talk in the church before the service and the coffee session in the hall afterwards (which I was invited to join) suggested a strong sense of community, so I hope the church is not under threat of closure as last week's was. I did hear, though, that another of the four churches served by the one priest, also about ten miles away or maybe a bit less, had closed recently. Finding Mass in provincial Europe is becoming much harder!
Accompaniment was provided on the organ by a member of the congregation who normally regards himself as a pianist and so doesn't use the pedals, and the singing was led by two young ladies one acting as animateur (or should that be animatrix?). As I arrived I was handed two books, one with the usual Mass responses as well as a good number of hymns with music, and another specifically for LWWE use, so once I'd worked out which was which joining in was quite easy.
There was no Gloria to my surprise, maybe because the Kyrie was replaced by a long paraphrased version of one of the Penitential Acts by Huub Oosterhuis and Bernard Huijbers. Oosterhuis also wrote most of the other hymns used and those he didn't were in a similar style: used for the opening, collection, post-Communion and recession. The Psalm was also sung to a paraphrased setting (can't remember if it was Oosterhuis or not); instead of an Alleluia before the Gospel we had an acclamation, not an Alleluia, after it; the response to the intercessions was also sung. In place of the Eucharistic Prayer there was a spoken prayer of thanksgiving, with congregational responses, after the Blessed Sacrament was brought to the altar.
I didn't count the congregation but would estimate about 35-40 and talk in the church before the service and the coffee session in the hall afterwards (which I was invited to join) suggested a strong sense of community, so I hope the church is not under threat of closure as last week's was. I did hear, though, that another of the four churches served by the one priest, also about ten miles away or maybe a bit less, had closed recently. Finding Mass in provincial Europe is becoming much harder!
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oopsorganist
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- Location: Leeds
Re: Liturgical Tourism
Ah.While Peter covers Europe I am touring God's own county.
Four hymns: Come down oh Love Divine, The Servant King, Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silent, I the Lord of Sea and Pie
Gloria: Duffy
Psalm: chanted refrain with cantor doing verses
Alleluia: Celtic I think with a spoken bit in t'middle.
Opening to Eucharistic Prayer: Sung by celebrant with a Holy Holy that goes "God of power and migh-ight" That one.
Eucharistic Acclamation: Plainsong. Standard one anyway
Lamb of God: Communion Song by Paul Inwood
Two lots of Muzac. Pachabel's Cannon for children coming back in and something folky during communions which I did not know and could not hear the words of but it was modern and I think it was about God? Probably was.
Congregation sing loudly most of the time. One musician doing everything. Lovely voice. Hard working.
Did you know it is possible to sing "I the Lord of Sea and Socks in 4/4 and 3/4 and also in 2 1/2/4 time? Randomly? Yes. It is.
Four hymns: Come down oh Love Divine, The Servant King, Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silent, I the Lord of Sea and Pie
Gloria: Duffy
Psalm: chanted refrain with cantor doing verses
Alleluia: Celtic I think with a spoken bit in t'middle.
Opening to Eucharistic Prayer: Sung by celebrant with a Holy Holy that goes "God of power and migh-ight" That one.
Eucharistic Acclamation: Plainsong. Standard one anyway
Lamb of God: Communion Song by Paul Inwood
Two lots of Muzac. Pachabel's Cannon for children coming back in and something folky during communions which I did not know and could not hear the words of but it was modern and I think it was about God? Probably was.
Congregation sing loudly most of the time. One musician doing everything. Lovely voice. Hard working.
Did you know it is possible to sing "I the Lord of Sea and Socks in 4/4 and 3/4 and also in 2 1/2/4 time? Randomly? Yes. It is.
uh oh!
Re: Liturgical Tourism
God of power and might?????!!!! 
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gwyn
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Re: Liturgical Tourism
God of power and might?????!!!!
Indeed.
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oopsorganist
- Posts: 788
- Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 9:55 pm
- Location: Leeds
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oopsorganist
- Posts: 788
- Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 9:55 pm
- Location: Leeds
Re: Liturgical Tourism
I was a bit taken back by the change to the Lamb of God really.
The Inwood Communion Songs are well good and this is not the first place I have heard them used in this place but I am not sure if it is the right place. I think they forgot the Lamb of God? Maybe I was not concentrating. But I was waiting to hear what would be sung there so I think I might have noticed it being said. It has certainly been used in another place but I can't remember where. I am always gadding about.
The Inwood Communion Songs are well good and this is not the first place I have heard them used in this place but I am not sure if it is the right place. I think they forgot the Lamb of God? Maybe I was not concentrating. But I was waiting to hear what would be sung there so I think I might have noticed it being said. It has certainly been used in another place but I can't remember where. I am always gadding about.
uh oh!