alan29 wrote:The children returning from their own liturgy of the word follow the procession down the aisle to the front where the priest asks them what they have been doing and gets them to show what they have been making.
"The preparation of the gifts is not usually an appropriate time for" a Q and A session with returning children, and if the Liturgy of the Word for Children has been done properly they should not have been "making" anything (rather, they should have been celebrating the Word at their own level) and so there should be nothing to "show".
If the question "What have you been up to?" is asked, the answer should be "The same as you: listening to the Word and reflecting on it."
Activities and making things are really only suitable for very small children who are not yet able to take a proper part in a group reflection on the readings (NB: not the leader "explaining" the readings and turning the celebration into a catechetical session).
alan29 wrote:The children returning from their own liturgy of the word follow the procession down the aisle to the front where the priest asks them what they have been doing and gets them to show what they have been making.
"The preparation of the gifts is not usually an appropriate time for" a Q and A session with returning children, and if the Liturgy of the Word for Children has been done properly they should not have been "making" anything (rather, they should have been celebrating the Word at their own level) and so there should be nothing to "show".
If the question "What have you been up to?" is asked, the answer should be "The same as you: listening to the Word and reflecting on it."
Activities and making things are really only suitable for very small children who are not yet able to take a proper part in a group reflection on the readings (NB: not the leader "explaining" the readings and turning the celebration into a catechetical session).
It is entirely appropriate for children to reflect on the readings of the day with a variety of activities.
oopsorganist wrote: Does it make a difference if we name it Offertory Procession? Shuffle of feet and clink of pennies. Movement.
What about dance?
Some four or more years ago there was a public meeting in Westminster Cathedral (on the 1st of April, if I remember correctly!) at which Cardinal Arinze, the Nigerian then in charge of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the rest, gave an address and then was open enough to invite questions. And someone asked him whether, given his African culture, it was OK to have a dance at the Offertory. His answer was "dance, no; shimmy, yes". And he gave a brief demonstration of what he meant by the latter, which I can't possibly describe! But I note from Chambers' Dictionary that 'shimmy' is defined as 'a body-shaking dance'...
Is there sometimes confusion between the Procession with Gifts and the Preparation of Gifts? In the latter case most mass books have the comment that the "Blessed be God Forever" dialogue may be omitted if there is singing - no mention of there perhaps being instrumental music. (And, of course, no indication about what sort of song might be involved.)
SC, I'm searching for a response but can only recall Oscar Wilde's ..'It's nothing personal, it's just you!'
In my previous existence in St Marie Cathedral, Sheffield we used to manage a choral piece followed by a hymn and often some further organ improvisation. Incense was involved which happily prolongs the affair.
In my present position in sunny Florida we barely get the time to sing a hymn in its entirety. I think this is largely down to the abundance of deacons who prepare the altar while the celebrant receives the gifts. The collection, which most weeks is around $29,000, does not take long because most is done by planned giving and direct debit and also because there are many ushers doing the collecting.
It is true that hymn singing is relatively new in the Catholic church as we currently experience it. There are a few hymns from the plainsong library but I don't suppose these were frequently (or originally) sung by the congregation.
In France there is a great tradition of having the organist play an Offertoire at this point.
We can pat ourselves on the back that communal singing still happens in most churches when it has largely disappeared from the secular life. Cathedral musicians and liturgists can muse as much as they like about what might be the desired practice but in so many churches musical resources are thin to the extent that an organist let alone an offertoire or a choral motet are a distant memory and, even back in the day, may not have been that edifying to anyone beyond the contributors.
We need to take every opportunity we can to enable the people of God to raise their praise to God and God, who is after all the only 'audience', is worthy of that indeed.
John Ainslie wrote:... His answer was "dance, no; shimmy, yes"...
Isn’t “shimmy” one of the words Bertie Wooster uses to describe the way Jeeves enters the room with a tray bearing a letter, telegram, cup of tea or whisky-and-soda? Not quite the same sort of preparation/presentation of gifts.
I’m surprised no-one has quoted the following to refute the initial claim of this thread:
In GIRM, §74, BCEW wrote:The procession bringing the gifts is accompanied by the Offertory Chant (cf no. 37 b), which continues at least until the gifts have been placed on the altar. The norms on the manner of singing are the same as for the Entrance Chant (cf no. 48). Singing may always accompany the rite at the Offertory, even when there is no procession with the gifts.
In the leaflet Music Resources – Singing the Mass, the Liturgy Office wrote:Column 3 .... At the Preparation of the Gifts (no longer called 'Offertory') there may be a song, instrumental music or silence…
Not much mention there of singing not being appropriate, even if they disagree on whether it is or is not an Offertory.
Sorry - my temperamental computer managed to post the above mesage twice, but I found that I couldn't simply delete the second one in its entirety! Could one of the moderators please remove this one?
Peter wrote:I’m surprised no-one has quoted the following to refute the initial claim of this thread:
In GIRM, §74, BCEW wrote:
Exactly, Peter - I was just about to get grumpy yet again - the old Software Support Desk mantra leapt to mind! ("When all else fails, RT*M" ) Why should we be burdened with the opinion of some well-meaning bod in Leeds when we have a very detailed Instruction Manual (even if we didn't know how to translate its title into English! ).
At today's Mass the priest launched forth .... Gloria in Excelsis Deo.... I though, oh ey up, we're going in Latin. But. No. It was followed by that Gloria thing that goes Glory to God, glory to the Father, Alleluia Amen etc. It did make me smile.
Had one of those moments yesterday. Arrived to be told that "For all the saints" was the offertory hymn. Cue frantic pre-mass practice, cos we have a keyboard and its a bit of a b*gger to play manualiter. Launch forth at the appropriate time. During verse 4 I spot the offertory procession over my shoulder, so I drop anchor for the kids to report back. No kids liturgy this week (*beep* and blast.) Into quiet improv on the hymn with some interesting modulations. Excellent guitarist decides to join in. Usually this works beautifully, but this time because of that particular tune its a bit of a car crash. Moral - sometimes a modicum of communication goes a long way.
It was not a Mass I had a hand in, therefore I was able to smile without the squirm that goes with the self inflicted car crash.
They did sing an Offertory hymn (back on topic Mod Bod!). Twas " I go before you always". Congregation joined in with that one. I have never sung that in a church before. Well not sung it anywhere really. Heard it on Youtube.
This year a certain parish near me has reduced the hymns sung in the services - if I read the music list correctly (and they may have a booklet of their own, bless, but I doubt it) to one hymn only at the 11 am Mass. Two hymns at the 9.30 Mass. It's quite a big and "prestigious parish" with a very big choir. Loadsa choirs. Last year I think I looked in at the music list, and they were doing 2 or 3 hymns. Now it is all concert recital and performance style music. So not having a hymn at the Offertory I would think. Hey ho.
.....wanders off singing Missa de Angelis Gloria to la........
Could one of the moderators please remove this one?
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