In my view -- people can really take ownership of quality texts & music over a period of time -- for example -- the 42 years in which the Grail Psalms have been sung at the church where I serve on music team.
Further to this -- a great deal of music has proved to be more than epehmeral -- for example -- the Gelineau tones, and the music of the St. Louis Jesuits.
I am not convinced that the 'new traslation' will prove to be more than ephemeral -- and I do not think people will take ownership of it.
With the greatest respect, johnquinn39, I'm not going to respond to this. We clearly have radically differing views on the subject, and I'm not sure it would be worth the time trying to convince each other. God bless!
johnquinn39 wrote:In my view -- people can really take ownership of quality texts & music over a period of time -- for example -- the 42 years in which the Grail Psalms have been sung at the church where I serve on music team.
Further to this -- a great deal of music has proved to be more than epehmeral -- for example -- the Gelineau tones, and the music of the St. Louis Jesuits.
Quite right, John. To my mind it's not so much particular composers that have endured wholesale; rather, individual pieces that combine important texts (faithfully rendered) with music that has some distinguishing character. So, for example, Gelineau's setting of Ps 22(23), or, say, Be not afraid from the SLJs, or Unless a grain of wheat from the St Thomas More Group. In each case you could name a number of other pieces of similar enduring character, but the point is that a healthy repertoire is a real mosaic - all manner of styles and genres, a panoply of composers, but each individual item a piece that has withstood the liturgical/pastoral/musical test of time.
mcb wrote:To my mind it's not so much particular composers that have endured wholesale; rather, individual pieces that combine important texts (faithfully rendered) with music that has some distinguishing character. So, for example, Gelineau's setting of Ps 22(23), or, say, Be not afraid from the SLJs, or Unless a grain of wheat from the St Thomas More Group. In each case you could name a number of other pieces of similar enduring character, but the point is that a healthy repertoire is a real mosaic - all manner of styles and genres, a panoply of composers, but each individual item a piece that has withstood the liturgical/pastoral/musical test of time.
Let me get this right, mcb. You're saying that liturgical music is "pastoral" in so far as it is popular, and for as long as it remains so. Is that a fair summary of your view?
Tom_Neal wrote:Let me get this right, mcb. You're saying that liturgical music is "pastoral" in so far as it is popular, and for as long as it remains so. Is that a fair summary of your view?
No, as paraphrase and précis goes, this is not an accurate representation. I said "each individual item a piece that has withstood the liturgical/pastoral/musical test of time".
Returning to John's comment, I know that he and I would not always be in agreement, but I would accept what he says about Grail Psalms/Gelineau Chants, however, I'm not so sure about the St Louis Jesuits (even though we now have a Jesuit Pope!). Whilst I find that, very occasionally, the odd work by them is appropriate for Mass - Bob Hurd's "As the deer longs" paraphrase of Ps 41 comes to mind - I think most of their music fits well in the context of what are sometimes called "renewal" gatherings (for which, I suspect, most of them were really written), I don't think it is appropriate for the solemn and sacred liturgy which the Mass is. Maybe it's pastoral music, but not necessarily for pastoral liturgy.
keitha wrote:Returning to John's comment, I know that he and I would not always be in agreement, but I would accept what he says about Grail Psalms/Gelineau Chants, however, I'm not so sure about the St Louis Jesuits (even though we now have a Jesuit Pope!). Whilst I find that, very occasionally, the odd work by them is appropriate for Mass - Bob Hurd's "As the deer longs" paraphrase of Ps 41 comes to mind - I think most of their music fits well in the context of what are sometimes called "renewal" gatherings (for which, I suspect, most of them were really written), I don't think it is appropriate for the solemn and sacred liturgy which the Mass is. Maybe it's pastoral music, but not necessarily for pastoral liturgy.
Ahem. Keith, Bob Hurd is not a member of the St Louis Jesuits.... They are Messrs Foley, Schutte, Dufford, O'Connor and Manion.
But you are right that the SLJ music was not originally for liturgical use but for concert use.
Tom_Neal wrote:Let me get this right, mcb. You're saying that liturgical music is "pastoral" in so far as it is popular, and for as long as it remains so. Is that a fair summary of your view?
No, as paraphrase and précis goes, this is not an accurate representation. I said "each individual item a piece that has withstood the liturgical/pastoral/musical test of time".
So, in that case, are you saying that there exists a body of material which has been proved to be pastoral by its longevity; that this initial success means it is likely to be objectively "pastoral"; and, by implication, that it will always be "pastoral"? Maybe you could clarify? Sorry, I'm genuinely struggling to understand your point!
keitha (speaking on Bob Hurd and the St. Louis Jesuits) wrote: I think most of their music fits well in the context of what are sometimes called "renewal" gatherings (for which, I suspect, most of them were really written), I don't think it is appropriate for the solemn and sacred liturgy which the Mass is. Maybe it's pastoral music, but not necessarily for pastoral liturgy.
This is a very interesting point, keitha! Could you develop this further?
