Ratzinger, Liturgy and England

[Hare]

It seems the club is being transformed
http://www.popebenedictxvifanclub.com/

Some excellent links here apart from anything else. I wish my entire parish had the intenet-I'd forward this site to them all. (Ignorance reigns supreme in this little corner of England!)

Merseysider said he'd never felt less Catholic than since the appointment -Ii've never felt MORE Catholic! We had a fantastic Mass here for God's blessing on The Holy Father last night. De Angelis and Credo III. (******** to our Anti-Latin Brigade!!)

[gwyn]

" . . . De Angelis and Credo III."

Sounds wonderful. We're having those for the Vigil Mass on the Eve of The Ascension of Our Lord. Full in the Panting Heart of Rome was sung with hwyl as a Recessional last Sunday morning.

Some anglican friends of mine attended, mainly to see 'how the other half live'. They're coming back again next Sunday.

[musicus]

Merseysider said he'd never felt less Catholic than since the appointment - I've never felt MORE Catholic!

As Marty Haugen writes in one of his songs, "All are welcome in this place!"

Musicus

[Vox Americana]

Ignorance reigns supreme…
De Angelis and Credo III.

Displayed admirably in that choice of chant, I suggest?!

There are some really wonderful settings - Cum Jubilo on this occasion, perhaps with Credo IV - so why use De Angelis, which is truly dreadful?

And, would I be correct in suggesting that you accompanied the chant with the organ?
And you'll be telling me next that it was a great success - because those that came sang with gusto…

There are those who rail against the vernacular and the use of instruments (as opposed to Latin and the organ), and cite selectively the poorest of examples of the genre to support their cause. However, in using the worst of chant settings, you're not going to persuade anyone that what you offer as an alternative is in fact better.

[Hare]

To answer Vox's charges:

Personally, I agree that de Angelis is far from ideal, but on this occasion things prevailed:-
1) Used at Installation of Benedict XVI last Sunday (as was Credo III).
2) PP likes it
3) We do not have congregational copies of Cum Jubilo

Yes-accompanied on organ (as in Rome). Have tried without, but congregation prefer some support.

I do not rail against instruments and the vernacular. this occasion demanded latin and organ.

Want to swap jobs and see if you can do any better than me in my parish?!

[contrabordun]

And you'll be telling me next that it was a great success - because those that came sang with gusto

heavens, one swoons at the very idea... there's all the difference in the world between a gusty rendition of old-fashioned music and active participation in a liturgy

[Hare]

heavens, one swoons at the very idea... there's all the difference in the world between a gusty rendition of old-fashioned music and active participation in a liturgy

Err - not quite sure how to take that.......can you enlarge please?

Oh - and yes, they did sing with gusto!

[Vox Americana]

Want to swap jobs and see if you can do any better than me in my parish?!

An offer I have to kindly refuse… unless your parish is particularly rich and can afford the regular airfare!

I wasn't charging you, or having a dig. Just that De Angelis and Credo III do nothing for me - and other chant does.

Will you always use De Angelis, or will you get congregational copies of Cum Jubilo? A short search on UK sites throws up this one where you can purchase copies for what looks to me a reasonable fee (and I'm not even on commission!) Or get someone with a music program to set it for you and make your own copies… it is hardly copyright… And then teach the people so that next time you can use something else.

Glad they sang with gusto. Do they sing vernacular settings with gusto too?

Err - not quite sure how to take that.......can you enlarge please?

No, CB's having a go at me… Sorry, I am merely a bit of a purist. I use chant unaccompanied, for it really does not need anything more than the support of the voice, and it is gentle - joining in the ever-rolling song of the Church. If I go to an event already in progress (late, as usual), I just slide in, hoping to not disturb those already speaking. That's how I see the song of the Church. It isn't up to me to make a grand entrance, but for me to gently take up the song and to leave it as gently for the next to sing. Active participation requires as much thought as action: it is a total engaging of mind, body, soul, serving and being served. It is more than getting folks to loudly sing. Just my two cents, of course, and nothing so learned as a Vatican document to back me up

[Hare]

I am still unsure who CB was getting at here. Would like verification from the horse's (or perhaps should be pipe's?! Contrabordun- geddit??! Praps not if you are against organ accompaniment!!) mouth..........

[contrabordun]

No, CB's having a go at me

Sorry, you're quite right, I was...no offence (offense?) meant though. For what it's worth, I don't have a problem with accompanied plainsong (as long as I don't have to do it from the melody - 'fraid I need the chords written out for me) - unacc. voice chant is fine where the same people do it day in and day out until it's almost unconscious, but from a purely practical standpoint I'm with Hare - congregations seem to respond to being led/supported, (which, if you're doing your job properly, communicating tempo and phrasing, and giving them clear indications as to when to start, stop and breathe and so on, isn't too surprising).

I can't sing Cum Jubilo and not wish I was singing Duruflé's version of it, instead, though.

[gwyn]

It strikes me that much of what is being said is subjective opinion rather than a gold standard. I love De Angelis. That's a personal standard, I don't believe it to be the opinion of the whole church, I'm sure there are thos who'd consider it to be second rate trash. We know it locally so we sing it locally, it's within local resources.

When all's said and done there's bigger things to be concerned about. What's this about there being now more muslims than catholics? Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-muslim, but aren't we the ones with the comission to convert and baptise?

[VML]

I agree with you all! What it comes down to is that even the Vatican sometimes has to work with the art of the possible, and use a bit of what is well known, albeit embroidered with polyphony in between, and an organ is quite useful when your congregation is 350,000.

Yes there are better plainsong Masses, and yes, yes, yes, sing unaccompanied whenever possible. In fact we almost always sing our psalm verses that way, but some people, choirs or cantors, are not happy doing so.

But doesn't the use of the old well known bits in Rome these weeks underline the need to make sure that all our congregations have the opportunity to learn at least some plainsong. It is our birthright.

[Hare]

But doesn't the use of the old well known bits in Rome these weeks underline the need to make sure that all our congregations have the opportunity to learn at least some plainsong. It is our birthright.

ABSO-FLIPIN' LUTELY!! Tell my lot that - that's what I meant by ignorance. (We had a parish pilgrimage to Lourdes; half of them spent al the time looking for an English Mass and eschewed the international celebrations cos there'd be Latin and plainsong!

[Merseysider]

...that's what I meant by ignorance... half of them spent al the time looking for an English Mass and eschewed the international celebrations cos there'd be Latin and plainsong!

I would do exactly the same – I can sing several plainsong settings from memory, I can recite all the spoken responses and I understand what (almost) every word means – but I don't speak Latin and I don't understand Latin. The Lord knows I have enough of a problem communicating with him in English. I don't want to have to translate the words – I want to understand them.

Just back from choir practice where we've hobbled through a bit of polyphony in Latin and a simple Gregorian Agnus. The (mostly elderly) singers told me they really had problems with Latin. I said: "But you're all old enough to have sung these words regularly" – to which one replied: "We used to mime".

Fine for those of you who can cope with Latin, carry on, enjoy. If you are happier worshipping the Lord in Welsh, Swalhili or French, please do so. But try to understand that for many of us worship is hard enough in our native tongue.

Sorry, Hare, much as I love belting out Missa de Angelis and Credo III with a large crowd, if I'd been with you in Lourdes I'd have been one of those seeking an English Mass.

[Hare]

Re umderstanding Latin, I am told by (supposedly inteligent) adult parishioners that they "might feel happier with Latin if they knew what they were singing.

I have tried to make the point that if we sing "Gloria in excelsis" at the point in the Mass where we might otherwise sing "Glory to God", that it doesn't need a degree in rocket science to work out that we may just be singing the same thing!

I asked a group of 4-7 yar olds at church, "If we sang something in a different language, that statred with the same word repeated 3 times, can you guess what it might be when we sing it every week in English?" They got it, and were eager to try. Some of their parents were against using Latin in case it put the children off coming. No. It put the parents off, so they stopped bringing the children!