Moderator's insertion for clarity's sake:
In another thread, JW said [quote]The choir was great, it was a Gospel choir, consisting of about 20 people, providing good leadership for the congregation, as well as 3 choir items. Despite this there were some unexpected music choices:
Entrance: All you nations sing out your joy to the Lord, Lucien Deiss
Gloria: Peruvian
Alleluia, version of 'Halle, Halle, Halle'
Offertory: choir item - I don't even know what language it was in (not English, Spanish or Latin) but very joyful and uplifting
Sanctus: another choir item - don't know the language but some of the congregation joined in
Acclamation: Christ has died, alleluia
Lamb of God: Israeli
Communion Procession: Love Divine (Blaenwern)
Recessional: Walk in the light/quote]
MARYFA commented:
Is this a Catholic Parish? In England and Wales? How do they get away with ignoring the norms for Mass laid down in G.I.R.M. and by the Bishops'
Conference i.e. Peruvian Gloria, Israeli Mass, Memorial acclamation? Forward to the 1970s.
The continued use of "old translation" mass settings
Moderators: Dom Perignon, Casimir
The continued use of "old translation" mass settings
The same way as they get away with a poem from the Co-op Book of Slushy Verse as the second reading at a Requiem Mass, after the psalm has been replaced by As I kneel before you.
Seriously though JW, it is interesting to hear what happens in other parishes.
Our numbers have been quite consistent over the last five years, possibly being boosted by the presence of an international army base on our patch. Many personnel there have become very involved in the parish during quite short postings.
I think the main fruit of the Year of Faith has been an increase in weekday Mass numbers, from possibly 15 average on the mid week days to 20-25 now. It can only be a good thing.
Seriously though JW, it is interesting to hear what happens in other parishes.
Our numbers have been quite consistent over the last five years, possibly being boosted by the presence of an international army base on our patch. Many personnel there have become very involved in the parish during quite short postings.
I think the main fruit of the Year of Faith has been an increase in weekday Mass numbers, from possibly 15 average on the mid week days to 20-25 now. It can only be a good thing.
The continued use of "old translation" mass settings
Given the comment about the 1970's and to lay to rest any possible misunderstanding, I should point out that the parish priest, congregation and music leaders are too young to be categorised as 1960's/1970's hippy liberals. For example, the priest was ordained in 1994.
My object is simply to visit growing parishes without any preconceptions to see what I can learn. My perspective is as a music leader so that interests me most. Personally, of course, when the situation arises, and I'm in a position to do so, I argue against the use of those non-approved Mass texts though I have been known to alter Responsorial Psalm texts such as "Such are the men who seek your face, O Lord." and sometimes say "for us and our salvation" at the Creed. Even at the Ordinariate Mass I attended, I believe there was a slight alteration to the psalm response.
My object is simply to visit growing parishes without any preconceptions to see what I can learn. My perspective is as a music leader so that interests me most. Personally, of course, when the situation arises, and I'm in a position to do so, I argue against the use of those non-approved Mass texts though I have been known to alter Responsorial Psalm texts such as "Such are the men who seek your face, O Lord." and sometimes say "for us and our salvation" at the Creed. Even at the Ordinariate Mass I attended, I believe there was a slight alteration to the psalm response.
JW
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Terry Quinn
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:16 pm
- Parish / Diocese: St John the Baptist RC. Burnley
The continued use of "old translation" mass settings
MARYFA wrote:Is this a Catholic Parish? In England and Wales? How do they get away with ignoring the norms for Mass laid down in G.I.R.M. and by the Bishops'
Conference i.e. Peruvian Gloria, Israeli Mass, Memorial acclamation? Forward to the 1970s.
This is a matter of great concern and annoyance to me. Why are some celebrants blatantly ignoring the latest GIRM. I attended a Mass over Christmas where the choir (who are noted for their strict observation to the GIRM) were having the day off. The Assistant Priest decided to liven things up with the old Celtic Liturgy 'Holy holy' and 'Christ has died'. At a later Mass, when the Folk Group played, the old words/music were sung to the Gloria, Holy holy & Mem. Acclam. The most prominent voice was the PP! Is it really 4 years since the introduction of the revised translation. Is it 9 months since the Bishops were reported to have sent out a stern reminder that old words must not be used?
GIRM, Bishops Conference, SSG etc. etc. Does anyone care?
The continued use of "old translation" mass settings
I wonder, when the rules were tightened up about paraphrases of sung texts whether any thought was given to music resources and talents that are available to most parishes.
It seems to me that in a huge number of parishes the alternatives are either to sing paraphrases or to sing nothing.
But I guess the discussion of whether the law is meant for man or man is meant for the law has a long history, 2000 years I seem to remember.
It seems to me that in a huge number of parishes the alternatives are either to sing paraphrases or to sing nothing.
But I guess the discussion of whether the law is meant for man or man is meant for the law has a long history, 2000 years I seem to remember.
The continued use of "old translation" mass settings
I will try to remember that, Alan29, as I bite my tongue at next week's funeral.
The continued use of "old translation" mass settings
Surely better to sing nothing then. But why does Alan29 think that in most parishes the musicians are incapable of learning in three years simple
Mass settings? Is it stupidity or stubborn refusal to try anything unfamiliar? The revised Celtic 'Holy,holy' is as easy as the old one but an effort has to be
made. Quite often it seems it is leadership from the clergy that is lacking. Time for some Episcopal whip-cracking.
Mass settings? Is it stupidity or stubborn refusal to try anything unfamiliar? The revised Celtic 'Holy,holy' is as easy as the old one but an effort has to be
made. Quite often it seems it is leadership from the clergy that is lacking. Time for some Episcopal whip-cracking.
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Terry Quinn
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:16 pm
- Parish / Diocese: St John the Baptist RC. Burnley
The continued use of "old translation" mass settings
MARYFA
Bulls eye!
Bulls eye!
The continued use of "old translation" mass settings
MARYFA wrote:Surely better to sing nothing then. But why does Alan29 think that in most parishes the musicians are incapable of learning in three years simple
Mass settings? Is it stupidity or stubborn refusal to try anything unfamiliar? The revised Celtic 'Holy,holy' is as easy as the old one but an effort has to be
made. Quite often it seems it is leadership from the clergy that is lacking. Time for some Episcopal whip-cracking.
I agree about Eucharistic responses. There are plenty of straightforward settings. And the re-translation has made for few changes.
However, I would love to be pointed in the direction of a simple, guitar friendly settings of the Gloria that can be used by a parish that has no choir (and no use for one.) More than one, to highlight the different seasons. Its a sung text and belongs to the congregation.
I am truly shocked and appalled that a church musician would say that it is better to sing nothing.
Re: The continued use of "old translation" mass settings
I think the real point is that we should be using settings of the Glory to God and Holy, Holy in the 'new translation' and not using 'old translation' versions. There was a 3 year transition period which ended at Pentecost 2014 - which was plenty of time. I do wonder whether the end of the transition was given sufficient publicity. In addition, I wonder whether more could be done to introduce settings in the 'new translation' to parishes with limited resources.
In my own diocese, a team of musicians did a tour of the deaneries (spending much time on the road) during 2011 explaining what was happening and introducing some of the new mass arrangements and the new missal chants - but I am certain that, although attendance was reasonably good, (i) many parishes were not represented and (ii) there were never more than a couple of priests at the sessions - even though they were urged to attend in an ad clerum note. I don't get the impression that there is a significant number who are actively "rebelling" in England & Wales...but I could be wrong!
In my own diocese, a team of musicians did a tour of the deaneries (spending much time on the road) during 2011 explaining what was happening and introducing some of the new mass arrangements and the new missal chants - but I am certain that, although attendance was reasonably good, (i) many parishes were not represented and (ii) there were never more than a couple of priests at the sessions - even though they were urged to attend in an ad clerum note. I don't get the impression that there is a significant number who are actively "rebelling" in England & Wales...but I could be wrong!
Keith Ainsworth
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Southern Comfort
- Posts: 2024
- Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:31 pm
Re: The continued use of "old translation" mass settings
Regarding the transition period: no one ever mentioned that there would be one, nor how long it would last. What happened was that the Bishops' Conference suddenly, out of the blue, announced that it was coming to an end. I think if they had actually told people upfront at the beginning how long it would last, or had given much longer notice of the impending end of it, then some of these problems might have been avoided.
Different communities move at different speeds, and there is still a lot of hostility out there to the new translation, whatever the official line may be. While most of us have got on with it, in this medium-sized diocese there are still two churches where they have never introduced the new texts at all, either spoken or sung. They may get there in the end, perhaps with a change of PP, but they are not there yet. I hear similar stories from other dioceses, too.
There are other parishes where they are still using a mixture of old and new settings. They, too, will probably get there in the end. (A complicating factor is that there is still talk that the bishops may heed their people and undo some of the changes, so some people are hedging their bets by deliberately using both old and new in the hope that one day they can return to the same music that their non-catholic sisters and brothers down the road are still using.)
I have also heard about several parishes, scattered around the country, where music effectively stopped in the wake of the implementation of the new texts. Parish musicians were depressed by the new texts and settings (especially the chant ones, it seems) and just gave up singing altogether — not even hymns. That is desperately sad, and I am sure was not the intention of the bishops.
We have to have a pastoral response to all these situations. I don't think the answer is to berate people, telling them how naughty they are. For example, parish X, where they are using a new Holy, Acclamation and Amen, still continues with an old Gloria. Much better to offer them a very easy new Gloria to get them going. If that one doesn't suit, try another one. Gentle hand-holding, carrots not sticks.
Of course, on that very topic, we do actually need a replacement for paraphrase settings like the Salazar Gloria, which made life easy for many, lifted up hearts and spirits, and is still to my surprise in use in more than a few places. That replacement is not going to happen until the present literalist strictures on keeping to every jot and tittle of the new texts are relaxed to some extent. Such a relaxation could be a pastoral response, but would obviously need to be carefully controlled. Musicam Sacram 55 expressly foresaw the need for this.
My impression is that because the Salazar setting was different from the official text, and yet extremely successful, some people somehow think that the change-of-text phenomenon does not apply to it; and so they continue to use it. They think the bishops' statement only applies to the 1970/73/75 texts. (Let's not start the debate about tropes again....) There are also cases where people have simply not heard about the bishops' statement re the transition period ending. Not everyone is as clued up as SSG members!
Different communities move at different speeds, and there is still a lot of hostility out there to the new translation, whatever the official line may be. While most of us have got on with it, in this medium-sized diocese there are still two churches where they have never introduced the new texts at all, either spoken or sung. They may get there in the end, perhaps with a change of PP, but they are not there yet. I hear similar stories from other dioceses, too.
There are other parishes where they are still using a mixture of old and new settings. They, too, will probably get there in the end. (A complicating factor is that there is still talk that the bishops may heed their people and undo some of the changes, so some people are hedging their bets by deliberately using both old and new in the hope that one day they can return to the same music that their non-catholic sisters and brothers down the road are still using.)
I have also heard about several parishes, scattered around the country, where music effectively stopped in the wake of the implementation of the new texts. Parish musicians were depressed by the new texts and settings (especially the chant ones, it seems) and just gave up singing altogether — not even hymns. That is desperately sad, and I am sure was not the intention of the bishops.
We have to have a pastoral response to all these situations. I don't think the answer is to berate people, telling them how naughty they are. For example, parish X, where they are using a new Holy, Acclamation and Amen, still continues with an old Gloria. Much better to offer them a very easy new Gloria to get them going. If that one doesn't suit, try another one. Gentle hand-holding, carrots not sticks.
Of course, on that very topic, we do actually need a replacement for paraphrase settings like the Salazar Gloria, which made life easy for many, lifted up hearts and spirits, and is still to my surprise in use in more than a few places. That replacement is not going to happen until the present literalist strictures on keeping to every jot and tittle of the new texts are relaxed to some extent. Such a relaxation could be a pastoral response, but would obviously need to be carefully controlled. Musicam Sacram 55 expressly foresaw the need for this.
My impression is that because the Salazar setting was different from the official text, and yet extremely successful, some people somehow think that the change-of-text phenomenon does not apply to it; and so they continue to use it. They think the bishops' statement only applies to the 1970/73/75 texts. (Let's not start the debate about tropes again....) There are also cases where people have simply not heard about the bishops' statement re the transition period ending. Not everyone is as clued up as SSG members!
Re: The continued use of "old translation" mass settings
Maybe part of the problem is that lots of people just don't know whats out there that they could possibly tackle or that might suit the worship style of their community.
Not everyone has the time or knowledge to go hunting, or the skills to make sense of what they might find.
Quite often, in my wanderings I sense that many parish musicians are working at the upper limit of a not very developed set of skills. Plenty will find tackling something as chunky as a new Gloria just too daunting. And of course, the support available isn't exactly thick on the ground at the local level.
Those of us who do have the skills can sometimes forget how hard it is for others.
Maybe I'm being too kind.
Not everyone has the time or knowledge to go hunting, or the skills to make sense of what they might find.
Quite often, in my wanderings I sense that many parish musicians are working at the upper limit of a not very developed set of skills. Plenty will find tackling something as chunky as a new Gloria just too daunting. And of course, the support available isn't exactly thick on the ground at the local level.
Those of us who do have the skills can sometimes forget how hard it is for others.
Maybe I'm being too kind.
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High Peak
- Posts: 218
- Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:49 pm
- Parish / Diocese: Glossop; Diocese of Nottingham
- Location: Derbyshire
Re: The continued use of "old translation" mass settings
alan29 wrote:Maybe part of the problem is that lots of people just don't know whats out there that they could possibly tackle or that might suit the worship style of their community.
Not everyone has the time or knowledge to go hunting, or the skills to make sense of what they might find.
Quite often, in my wanderings I sense that many parish musicians are working at the upper limit of a not very developed set of skills. Plenty will find tackling something as chunky as a new Gloria just too daunting. And of course, the support available isn't exactly thick on the ground at the local level.
Those of us who do have the skills can sometimes forget how hard it is for others.
Maybe I'm being too kind.
I think that this is a very valid point. When I was asked, out of the blue, to begin my present role (less than 30 months ago) I was woefully ignorant of what was available (indeed, I wasn't even aware of the GIRM!!). I am not presently working so I have had lots of time to research, read, trawl through YouTube, etc.
Another problem from my experience is that any communication from the Diocese, etc., generally gets sent to the PP and does not always get passed on to us mere minions!! Dioceses should also address communications to parish liturgists/musicians as well as gather our contact details so that we may be emailed directly.
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PhloridaPhil
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:42 pm
- Parish / Diocese: St Lawrence, Diocese of St Petersburg
- Location: Tampa, Florida
- Contact:
Re: The continued use of "old translation" mass settings
HIgh Peak,
I agree, and having met you a couple of years ago, I empathise with you. We seem to have forgotten the art of conversation. Quite a few years ago we may have been momentarily energised by the notion of 'collaborative ministry' in the Bishops' document 'THE SIGN WE GIVE'. One has to ask whether some clergy read signs at all. If they did they would ensure that information were disseminated as widely as possible in the parish and the diocese.
I do not believe that our clergy have real knowledge in the areas of liturgy and music (and there is more to liturgy than text and music). Some of our clergy may even admit to this. Therefore I have to ask why they are not seeking meaningful formation In the sphere in which they preside or at least entering into a conversation with parish ministers which might enable the greater participation of all in the worship of God?
I suppose once one has realised that there is a problem of investment in liturgical formation one needs to act. In the meantime, and in a meantime charged with questions about freedom of information, we must all continue to study documents and websites such as this, and our Bishops' Conference for guidance.
I agree, and having met you a couple of years ago, I empathise with you. We seem to have forgotten the art of conversation. Quite a few years ago we may have been momentarily energised by the notion of 'collaborative ministry' in the Bishops' document 'THE SIGN WE GIVE'. One has to ask whether some clergy read signs at all. If they did they would ensure that information were disseminated as widely as possible in the parish and the diocese.
I do not believe that our clergy have real knowledge in the areas of liturgy and music (and there is more to liturgy than text and music). Some of our clergy may even admit to this. Therefore I have to ask why they are not seeking meaningful formation In the sphere in which they preside or at least entering into a conversation with parish ministers which might enable the greater participation of all in the worship of God?
I suppose once one has realised that there is a problem of investment in liturgical formation one needs to act. In the meantime, and in a meantime charged with questions about freedom of information, we must all continue to study documents and websites such as this, and our Bishops' Conference for guidance.
Re: The continued use of "old translation" mass settings
the New translation has never been a problem here - apart from certain people who are very audible 9due to microphones!!!!) going onto auto-pilot in the New Celtic Sanctus ("God of power and might")