Acclamations for Congregation & Choir

[Gabriel]

Just as you think of adding something to a topic - it closed…

This is a positive suggestion based on comment of MCB's:

presbyter wrote:

Instead, let's have some beautiful settings composed that have choral embellishments for cathedral choirs and a jolly good tune for the people.

MCB wrote:
Here's the rub. Where are these musical settings? I for one would love to know of them if they're out there; I certainly wish there were more.

My guess is that such material does already exist, in some places, but given the seeming isolation of many of our Cathedral MDs and I guess the lack of a perceived 'market' for publishing the material it is not well known.

It seems to me there would be a value in compiling such a list - the obvious place to start would be here from forum members but my guess is that it actually would require some work to do well - so is probably a task for the Executive or to be commissioned for Music and Liturgy. I would guess if such a list sent by the Society as information to Cathedrals and diocesan music committees it would be a real service.

As a broad definition settings of Mass (whole or part) that are for the whole assembly but have parts for an above average choir.

Some starters:

Philip Duffy - Mass of St Nicholas (Parish Music - Out of Print)
Colin Mawby - Festival Mass & Mass of the Holy City (Mayhew)
David Hill - Sanctus (unpublished)
Christopher Walker - Clifton Acclamations (OCP)
Andrew Wright - Mass of Dedication (unpublished)

Gabriel

[sidvicius]

Yes, let's have beautiful music that is both interesting for choir and enjoyable for congregation. Looking at Gabriel's post, the answer to mcb's question ("where are these musical settings?") would often appear to be "unpublished, or out of print" - is there anything SSG can do to remedy this?

[excathedra]

Yes, let's have beautiful music that is both interesting for choir and enjoyable for congregation. Looking at Gabriel's post, the answer to mcb's question ("where are these musical settings?") would often appear to be "unpublished, or out of print" - is there anything SSG can do to remedy this?

Over the years, the SSG has had reasonable success in promoting new music when it has worked in partnership with publishers. Examples include 'The Responsorial Psalm Book' (Collins), 'Music for the Mass', volumes 1 & 2 (Chapman), and 'Psalm Songs', volumes 1-3 (Chapman) - all of which are essentially full of SSG composers' music. But SSG has failed to recoup its investment when it has 'gone it alone' - e.g. 'Rejoice and be Glad' and 'Baptised with Fire'. The difference is that it is not enough that the music be good, or that it be nicely printed; it needs serious marketing and distribution. It almost certainly also needs subsidising by other more lucrative items in the catalogue. I would imagine that even such large concerns as OCP and GIA rely on hymn book sales to underwrite their sheet music offerings. I think that SSG is unlikely to risk any more publication projects of its own. Partnerships are another matter.

My advice to an unpublished composer would be to submit their work to a music publisher that publishes similar music. And if anyone wants to access out-of-print works, they should approach the publishers for permission to make or purchase photocopies. (It's not only 'unknown' composers who have to battle with market forces; a few months ago, having bought an excellent CD of Peter Maxwell Davies' church music, I ordered the scores from Chester Music. When they arrived, several were authorised photocopies, made 'as and when required' by the publisher. PMD is hardly an 'unknown'!)

Allow me an aside. Forum posts occasionally suggest that maybe the SSG could/should do/research something or other. Well, the SSG is its members, and many of them - many of you - are already doing a great deal. SSG's trustees are just ordinary members, elected by their peers for three years to keep the show on the road (journal, summer school, website, composers' group, local meetings, dialogue with the Bishops' Conference etc). Those who are not retired have full time jobs and serve the membership in their spare time. SSG has no central HQ - no office at all, actually - and no employees; it's all voluntary. I say this not in any sense as a rant, but as a reality check. SSG is a society (literally: a band of friends) in which we all strive to help each other. SSG isn't a 'them' that can do things for 'us'. It's us! So keep the ideas coming, and if you see one that you can help with, go for it. If you think SSG trustees can support you in any way, just ask. If it's within our resources and in line with our charitable objects, we will happily do so.

[musicus]

Philip Duffy - Mass of St Nicholas (Parish Music - Out of Print)
Colin Mawby - Festival Mass & Mass of the Holy City (Mayhew)
David Hill - Sanctus (unpublished)
Christopher Walker - Clifton Acclamations (OCP)
Andrew Wright - Mass of Dedication (unpublished)

Hmm. These are all by cathedral DOMs! Perhaps, like those deceased lawyers in the old joke, "deep down" they aren't so bad.

Musicus

[Benevenio]

Yes, let's have beautiful music that is both interesting for choir and enjoyable for congregation. Looking at Gabriel's post, the answer to mcb's question ("where are these musical settings?") would often appear to be "unpublished, or out of print" - is there anything SSG can do to remedy this?

I think that SSG is unlikely to risk any more publication projects of its own…

Pardon me? I'd hate to point out the obvious but the Society of Saint Gregory must risk publication projects - one of the SSG aims after all is

to reproduce, print, publish and sell books and pamphlets likely to be required by persons concerned with the liturgy and sacred music.

and these days you do not need to publish on paper… witness this forum, with music for download. Here, there are no production costs (though there are other costs such as typesetting, setting up the website, copyright fees etc). And yet, whoever decided the policy has seen fit to limit the music available here to those pieces that are presented at Composers' Group, which would be fine if there was actually any coming through. But the last piece available was made so well before Christmas.

• Is nothing else from CG worth publishing?
• Are the composers/copyright holders not giving their permission to publish?
• Are those concerned just too busy to get the stuff selected and typeset? (in which case, let someone else do it - there are many who post here who would be willing to help with either task, I'm sure)
• Why don't we open it up to other pieces from other people?
• Is there any way of allowing people to pay for the music they download, or must it all be free, therefore depriving the composers and authors of income?

[Gabriel]

A brief response to Musicus.

It is perhaps not surprising that it is Cathedral DOM have written the music - it would seem to me that most liturgical composers write according to needs and resources. Here the need is settings of the ordinary suitable for resources of assembly and competent choir - a Cathedral choir.

The request is primarily for information - what resources do exist. I am not sure about publication - as I said I not sure there is a 'market' but partly why I think it might be a larger task than just a list would be finding about availability but let's start by making a list.

While writing this Benevenio has also responded (I'm a slow typist) but he is quite right that what it means to publish is changing. Also the music from CG displays a generosity that I think is a great example.

Though I realise that the Trustees are ordinary busy people I would hope that this forum provides ideas that the trustees might consider to further the aims of the society.

Gabriel

[Merseysider]

and these days you do not need to publish on paper… witness this forum, with music for download.

Excellent idea. There are problems with copyright on words but it's simply a question of asking. I've usually had an "OK" from people when asking if I can share my setting of their words with other musicians in a non-commercial workshop version.

whoever decided the policy has seen fit to limit the music available here to those pieces that are presented at Composers' Group...Why don't we open it up to other pieces from other people?

Hear! Hear! There are stacks of peope writing all around the country – it would seem sensible to share settings which have worked well in the parish. (And those which make our congregation grimace and squirm will stay locked in my desk drawer!)

[excathedra]

I think that SSG is unlikely to risk any more publication projects of its own…

Pardon me? I'd hate to point out the obvious but the Society of Saint Gregory must risk publication projects - one of the SSG aims after all is

to reproduce, print, publish and sell books and pamphlets likely to be required by persons concerned with the liturgy and sacred music.

Precisely! Which was why I said (adding the all-important rider):

I think that SSG is unlikely to risk any more publication projects of its own. Partnerships are another matter.

I was merely trying to say that we need new models of publication. Partnerships have worked well for SSG; self-publication has not. I most certainly was not saying that SSG will no longer publish!

[excathedra]

Though I realise that the Trustees are ordinary busy people I would hope that this forum provides ideas that the trustees might consider to further the aims of the society.

Quite so - as I said in my post above.

In fact, the present discussion about online publication is one such idea that clearly calls for further thought and development. When we had a Music Supplement in the journal for a year or two, the same question was always being raised: why is it just Composers' Group music? I suppose the answer, then and now, is that we were trying to raise the Group's profile and get more composers to come along. Perhaps we need to re-evaluate our priorities and become a vehicle for online publication. I, for one, would be keen to look into that - though I do not underestimate the relative complexity of such a development. As I said earlier, and as Benvenio has also said, there are enough of us out here capable of sharing the work that would be entailed.

[Merseysider]

why is it just Composers' Group music? I suppose the answer, then and now, is that we were trying to raise the Group's profile...

... which is, of course, commendable. But it seems sad not to share music from other SSG members, particularly music which has been successful in the parish setting.

In our community we use a lot of music by people who are not in the CG but are still producing very singable and popular pieces which should be shared. Let's get it out and about.

[ssgcgs]

My post of 7th Feb http://www.ssg.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=244 is relevant here. I would add that I have never seen myself as the one who judges people's music worthy or otherwise, though I have been frustrated at the lack of outlet for CG music for some time.

If other music is to be displayed on this website, let it be suitably judged before uploading (no more free-for-alls like we had last year), and give the CG music its rightful place in the queue please.

CG Sec.

[gwyn]

The Composers Group presents a problem for me, maybe a few others too, in that I'd have to turn up for a meeting to get music looked at/constructively critisiced. I'd love to come to meetings but work commitments prevent.

Could we simply forward scores to the group to be looked at in my/our absence? Guidance or criticism coud be forwarded. I appreciate that this is not ideal.

Just a thought.

Gwyn.

[musicus]

Could we simply forward scores to the group to be looked at in my/our absence? Guidance or criticism coud be forwarded. I appreciate that this is not ideal.

Where to begin?

How about: "Open those floodgates..." ?

M

[ssgcgs]

Open the floodgates; yes, but to be inundated, not with musical offerings, but with the support that is needed to run an efficient on-line publishing service. In the end, I can’t appoint people to tasks, and those subscribing to this Forum can’t appoint themselves; that’s what the Trustees are for. If they haven’t got time themselves they should at least be busy “asking for a man who can”. I would like to give a brief background to the situation as it stands now and suggest how we might move forward.

When I took on the organisation of Composers’ Group three years ago, I inherited a member list of ninety, many of whom were “sleeping” members, which I whittled down to about thirty then built up again with people who had a current interest. I looked for every situation I could to promote the Group and have kept up regular communication with the members, many of whom are very generous in their appreciation of what the Group offers. We have been on the edge of viability but, for over a year now, attendances have been pretty good. There is no substitute for a live meeting and live music, with apologies to those who would like to attend but cannot. One of the best things that happened was the composers’ workshop at Summer School in 2003, where Bill Tamblyn inspired a good number of people and allowed me to raise the profile considerably. There’s another workshop for composers, this time with Paul Inwood, at this year’s Summer School – let’s hope that will be similarly beneficial.

Music on the website was an idea dating back to May 2002 and originating with a member of the Group. During its long gestation, it was always intended as an outlet for CG music. When it finally came on-line late last year it was immediately in contention with some rather dubious website links to other music. To have the suggestion made at that point that music downloads be made a facility for anyone to hitch up to made me see red. Since then, my views have mellowed and, if we could harness the talents of composers who were unable to attend meetings it might be beneficial.

What we lack seems to be a musical/liturgical arbiter (or panel) who can judge pieces worthy or otherwise. It cannot be something which is open to all-comers, I feel; the SSG must have some editorial and legal control. We have seen the links that appear if left to the “discretion” of the individual (they are no longer visible as they have been moderated out).

In response to various rumblings over inactivity on the music download area, I agree that the time that has elapsed since the last batch of uploads is unreasonable, because I think there is more CG music worthy of consideration (though who am I to say?), which I have duly passed on. We need an editorial panel (safer than one subjective view), a typesetting team and good communications. I can communicate with members of the Group, which spreads the net wider than this Forum.

My experience of meetings is a very good one, and there is no substitute for a live meeting. I read with regret the bitter experiences that others have had at such meetings. I hope that recent comments about cathedral MDs will not have lost us their hospitality for future meetings. I hope that our activities will also be able to expand through the website, but at the moment we are not sufficiently well manned.

Any volunteers out there?

CG Sec

[gwyn]

ssgcgs wrote:

Any volunteers out there?

I'm quite familiar and experienced with Sibelius Software, and where necessary creating Adobe Acrobat files from a Sibelius score. I'm happy to do whatever I can to be of help.

Gwyn.