Andrew Carwood

[organist]

Andrew Carwood director of music at St Paul's cathedral gave an interesting talk at Westminster cathedral hall in the Faith matters series. His credentials are impeccable having been at the cathedral and the oratory. He spoke of musicians as being on a ladder with Bach on the top rung and others lower down and how a balanced diet is needed. Training of young musicians was stressed and a concern about the drop in hymnsinging thanks to lack of support for singing in schools in the past. He said James O'Donnell had attempted various settings at the Chrism mass for the diocese with no success but did not mention Westminster's promotion of MacMillan St Anne Mass. There was general agreement in discussion groups about better education for the clergy and a move away from CDs to live music and building a parish repertoire.

[Southern Comfort]

He said James O'Donnell had attempted various settings at the Chrism mass for the diocese with no success

Don't get me started....

[organist]

Well it's all past history Southern Comfort but it is interesting to see what our esteemed "professionals" want us to sing.

[johnquinn39]

Has Andrew C. composed any good psalm settings or hymn tunes that people like and sing?

Is he familiar with the repertoire that has developed over the past 40 years?

[contrabordun]

Well, a glance through a random 2 weeks-worth of St Paul's music list shows four items by living composers, so it looks (not really surprisingly) as though he is familiar with new repertoire relevant to his field. But an Anglican Cathedral DoM has a very specific job to do and it's not especially helpful to compare it (especially Choral Evensong) to what the likes of us get up to of a Sunday morning.

I think a more interesting question - and one that we've done before a few times - is what RC Cathedral music should look like in terms of what is the appropriate balance between the sort of music that only a trained choir under professionally-skilled direction can provide and the more participation-oriented approach (cf Nick's advice to "stand the choir down for a few months!").

I doubt anybody here will be surprised if I say I think the professional/semi-professional approach is exactly what 'our' Cathedrals should be doing. YMMV

[Nick Baty]

Our cathedrals are, surely, bound by the same rules as the rest of us: all the most important items are sung by the assembly and the presider.

[VML]

And as I type this, that it just what is happening at the Chrism Mass at Clifton. Had to miss it this year, but it is a wonderful example of the committed people of the diocese raising the roof, along with excellent choir, cantors/ animateurs who include the assembly superbly.

[JW]

Anglican cathedrals have established an incredible reputation for the quality of their music. I would have thought that this is something that Catholicism should be aspiring to. As Nick says, congregational singing at Mass is mandated but GIRM provides an option of 'the choir alone' singing certain chants (e.g. Entrance, Offertory, Communion, the verse of the Gospel Acclamation). Given the resources available to a cathedral, one would hope that the music used for congregational singing at our cathedrals is of higher quality than that in a parish church... And that the cathedral congregation is properly encouraged and taught how to sing.

There is also the question of whether there should be more singing of Morning and Evening Prayer at our cathedrals... If the Anglican can do Evensong...

Westminster Cathedral, for example offers the following music list for Easter Sunday, (which, to my mind, is biased too far towards the choir):

1030 SOLEMN MASS Full Choir
Resurrexi, 196 I
Missa Papæ Marcelli (K, G, A1, A2) Palestrina
O filii et filiæ Tisserot arr. Baker
Hæc dies, 196 G
Pascha nostrum, 197 A
Victimæ paschali laudes, 198 Sq
Sanctus I
Pascha nostrum, 199 C
Jesus Christ is risen today H
Organ: Prelude and Fugue in B major Dupré

1530 SOLEMNVESPERS AND BENEDICTION Full Choir
Magnificat primi toni Bevan
Ad cenam Agni providi H
Surrexit a mortuis Widor
Cum esset sero M
Organ: Prelude and Fugue in D Schmidt

[Nick Baty]

Given the resources available to a cathedral, one would hope that the music used for congregational singing at our cathedrals is of higher quality than that in a parish church...

Surely, JW, the quality of music used should be the same and is unaffected by a cathedral's resources.

[IncenseTom]

Westminster Cathedral, for example offers the following music list for Easter Sunday, (which, to my mind, is biased too far towards the choir):

1030 SOLEMN MASS Full Choir
Resurrexi, 196 I
Missa Papæ Marcelli (K, G, A1, A2) Palestrina
O filii et filiæ Tisserot arr. Baker
Hæc dies, 196 G
Pascha nostrum, 197 A
Victimæ paschali laudes, 198 Sq
Sanctus I
Pascha nostrum, 199 C
Jesus Christ is risen today H
Organ: Prelude and Fugue in B major Dupré

1530 SOLEMNVESPERS AND BENEDICTION Full Choir
Magnificat primi toni Bevan
Ad cenam Agni providi H
Surrexit a mortuis Widor
Cum esset sero M
Organ: Prelude and Fugue in D Schmidt

Yes, but all of this music is part of the rich heritage of the musical history of the church, and if you can't hear it at Westminster Cathedral, then where can you hear aside from non-liturgical concerts?

[Southern Comfort]

Yes, but all of this music is part of the rich heritage of the musical history of the church, and if you can't hear it at Westminster Cathedral, then where can you hear aside from non-liturgical concerts?

I think the answer to this question depends very much on what you consider liturgy to be, how you define it. I ask myself how the concept of "hearing" this music fits in to such a definition. <stirring the pot off>

[Nick Baty]

Yes, but all of this music is part of the rich heritage of the musical history of the church, and if you can't hear it at Westminster Cathedral, then where can you hear aside from non-liturgical concerts?

If this is about hearing the music, then you might as well hear it in a non-liturgical context. Music has a specific function in liturgy – its history is, surely, a secondary consideration.

[organist]

Chrism Mass at Westminster cathedral on Tuesday
My song is love unknown
Kyrie Missa St Johannes de Deo Haydn
Gloria Missa de angelis
Hymn at offertory to Eisenach about the oils
Congregational response about the oils
Offertory Timor est tremor Poulenc
Sanctus Missa de angelis
Agnus Dei Haydn
Communion Ave verum Mozart
O bread of heaven
Final hymn The royal banners forward go to Gonfalon Royal
Guilmant Grand Choeur

So full participation plus some glorious choral music. Interesting that we have gone back to the Latin and not using MacMillan St Ann'e Mass (see my earlier comments).

[HallamPhil]

Chrism Mass at Cathedral Church of St Marie, Sheffield (Hallam Diocese)

With all the saints (Hurd)
Gloria - New Wine (Jakob)
Psalm (Jakob)
Gospel Acclamation (Jakob)
Procession of Oils: O Redemptor, sume carmen - in English (Jakob)
Lord, whose love in humble service (Blaenwern)
Eucharistic Acclamations: Missal tones
Lamb of God - New Wine (Jakob)
Feed us, Lord (Walker)
O Lord I will sing - Chrism verses (Walker)
Renew me, Lord (Farrell)
Launch out into the deep - Year of Faith Song (Jakob)

The music was sung by congregation throughout and supported by the Diocesan Choir only 52 members of which were able to attend the 1100am Liturgy on Wednesday..

[IncenseTom]

I think the answer to this question depends very much on what you consider liturgy to be, how you define it. I ask myself how the concept of "hearing" this music fits in to such a definition. <stirring the pot off>

If this is about hearing the music, then you might as well hear it in a non-liturgical context. Music has a specific function in liturgy – its history is, surely, a secondary consideration.

Pope Benedict reminded us that we don't always have to sing for the music to help our participation in the Liturgy - listening works too. Let me be clear - i'm in no way in favour of silencing the congregation, merely saying that at the Mother church of England and Wales one ought to expect to hear things you wouldn't normally hear in a rural or town parish.