Closure of Department for Pastoral Formation - Portsmouth

[Hare]

..............Unfortunately I read the link in one of the threads above and found it very, very sad. That is not my idea of Christianity and in many ways I wish it had not been posted on here.

I had no ulterior motives in posting the link mentioned - I (obviously mistakenly) thought it might be of interest to see how something was developing elsewhere. I apologize sincerely for causing any distress. I shall also leave the discussion ghroup linked to above.

[kerrezza]

Hare, I think your 'man flu' must be getting to you as I do not feel you need to apologise for posting the link. Get well soon!

[musicus]

Well said, kerrezza.

[Hare]

Oh - I'm confused! One person says the link should not have been posted, and Musicus agreed.....now Musicus agrees with someone else saying that I didn't need to apologize...?

[Dom Perignon]

Hare, neither Musicus nor I feel that you have anything to apologise for. SOP and Musicus were responding to the nature of some of the posts that began to appear on the blog in question over time - and you cannot be blamed for those!

(Thank you, Dom Perignon. Yes, this is exactly what I meant - musicus, moderator)

[Hare]

Hare, neither Musicus nor I feel that you have anything to apologise for. SOP and Musicus were responding to the nature of some of the posts that began to appear on the blog in question over time - and you cannot be blamed for those!

Ok, thanks. It did read to me, though, that SOP didn't think the link should have been posted, and Musicus agreed with them....

[SOP]

To clarify, I am more annoyed with myself for clicking on the link and should have known better. In one way I do regret it was posted in here but feel happier now I know you did not have an ulterior motive or there was any gleeful enjoyment in someone else's misfortune. That is the problem with forums - we do not know each other and can only guess or assume intentions.

I was taken aback by some of the posts on that link which to me are vile. I spent two years working in a missionary diocese and those of us who could sing or play musical instruments did all we could to introduce music into churches. The very idea we would have even attempted motets by Palestrina, Byrd, Elgar etc is actually making me laugh. Strangely enough there were very few organs in those small churches, chapels, school halls. In fact, there were a few churches that only had Eucharistic Services except for once or twice a month when a travelling priest could get round and consecrate enough hosts whilst celebrating the rare Mass. I know most people on here would shudder at the music we sang. That is my experience and I feel no guilt or unease at the music we sang.

Perhaps this explanation will help you understand why I found the posts on that link so sad. Where is Christ in some of those posts? But I spy Pharisees. But then good old Catholic guilt appears and I wonder if I am seeing splinters whilst ignoring planks.

I regret clicking on that link and to ease my guilt, wish it had not been posted.

[Hare]

To clarify, I am more annoyed with myself for clicking on the link and should have known better. In one way I do regret it was posted in here but feel happier now I know you did not have an ulterior motive or there was any gleeful enjoyment in someone else's misfortune. That is the problem with forums - we do not know each other and can only guess or assume intentions.

I was taken aback by some of the posts on that link which to me are vile. I spent two years working in a missionary diocese and those of us who could sing or play musical instruments did all we could to introduce music into churches. The very idea we would have even attempted motets by Palestrina, Byrd, Elgar etc is actually making me laugh. Strangely enough there were very few organs in those small churches, chapels, school halls. In fact, there were a few churches that only had Eucharistic Services except for once or twice a month when a travelling priest could get round and consecrate enough hosts whilst celebrating the rare Mass. I know most people on here would shudder at the music we sang. That is my experience and I feel no guilt or unease at the music we sang.

Perhaps this explanation will help you understand why I found the posts on that link so sad. Where is Christ in some of those posts? But I spy Pharisees. But then good old Catholic guilt appears and I wonder if I am seeing splinters whilst ignoring planks.

I regret clicking on that link and to ease my guilt, wish it had not been posted.

I quite understand your distress. However, If there was the remotest suspicion in anyone's mind that I had posted the link with "gleeful enjoyment" it is best if I refrain from any future participation in this forum.

[gwyn]

However, If there was the remotest suspicion in anyone's mind that I had posted the link with "gleeful enjoyment" it is best if I refrain from any future participation in this forum.

Nooooo!
Someone stop him.

[alan29]

However, If there was the remotest suspicion in anyone's mind that I had posted the link with "gleeful enjoyment" it is best if I refrain from any future participation in this forum.

Nooooo!
Someone stop him.

seconded.

[SOP]

Hare, please do not over-react. If anyone should stay away from the forum it should be me as you are a more active participant.

[HallamPhil]

I do wonder whether some of elements of this discussion might better have taken place in private via the PM facility.

A more appropriate focus for our sensitivities is those diocesan staff and parish communities who will be most directly affected by the closure of the Pastoral Formation department in Portsmouth.

[JW]

I agree that it is vile that people who presumably are Catholics think that it is OK to express glee at people being made redundant. It is very clear that Hare's motives were entirely honourable. There is a part of the modern church that I want nothing to do with - I don't read certain blogs or certain newspaper columns.

The departmental closure should now be a legal process (civil). The next stage will be for the diocese to implement the statutory consultation procedures and to try to find posts elsewhere in the diocese for those affected. If they are wise, the diocese will obtain full and final signatures to the extent that those made redundant relinquish their right to sue for wrongful dismissal. This will, of course, cost the diocese more: they will need to pay the costs of individual's solicitors and add to the redundancy package.

So far there is little or no recognition by the diocese for the work done by the department over the years. The question arises as to whether anyone would wish to work or volunteer for this particular diocese in the future: with their record of making people redundant and trying to weasel out of their legal responsibility for the behaviour of some of their priests.

This week's Tablet announces that there are job cuts planned at Leeds as well. Six jobs will be made redundant. Affected employees are given the choice of taking voluntary redundancy or of applying for one of the few jobs left! They are also considering asking schools to contribute to the diocesan office for education and schools - and pigs might fly!

Paragraph 112 of the Bishops Conference document "The Common Good and the Catholic Church's Social Teaching (1996) said:

112. Employers need reminding that their employees as a body constitute a form of "social capital", a reservoir of human effort, wisdom and experience. Accountancy methods which have to disregard such assets in the valuation of a commercial concern or in drawing up a balance sheet are inevitably guilty of false accounting, for they fail to make visible the resources of human skill and judgement which that company has at its disposal. This dumping of human " social capital", which the Catholic Church must deplore, is a prevalent cause of social injustice in modern society. It often occurs in company "downsizing" operations associated with takeovers, closures and mergers.

Not a lot of point in Catholic Social Teaching if the Church doesn't follow it.

[musicus]

First Portsmouth, now Leeds. I do hope that other dioceses don't conclude that this is an effective way forward. Surely the dawning realisation that cost-cutting is badly damaging the NHS should give our diocesan authorities pause. Trained and expert lay people may cost more than priests, but I would have thought the latter are urgently needed (and in short supply) to carry out those parochial and pastoral duties that only they can perform.

[quaeritor]

This matter is also being "discussed" here http://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/organists/

Forgive my technical ineptitude - I've clicked on this link but all I can see is completely innocent stuff about organs and organists, I'd like to know what it is I'm supposed to be outraged by

What did I do wrong?

Q