Glory be to thee O Lord Most High

[gwyn]

While the Sanctus as sung in R.C. churches transaltes "Hosanna in excelsis" as "Hosanna in the highest", the Anglican version translates it as "Glory be to thee O Lord Most High". Both translate the final line of the Benedictus as "Hosanna in the highest".

Can anyone throw any light on how this came about? It's certainly that way in the 1662 bcp.

Gwyn.

[quaeritor]

Can anyone throw any light on how this came about?

Not I, but it might help if someone could explain exactly what "Hosanna in the highest" means - - is it " the very best form of Hosanna!" (sort of "Hosanna in spades!"), or "Hosanna is being shouted in the highest places!", or "Hosanna is being shouted by the highest of beings", or "Hosanna to the Highest One" ? We have used this shorthand form of words for so long, and it fills us with a warm sort of good will feeling, but what does it really mean?

Q

[Hare]

In the original version of "The gathering Mass" Paul Inwood paraphrased it as "Hosannah in the highest heavens" Is this significant? I must say that is how I have imagined it, although as is stated in the Prefaces "our voices are one with theirs" at this point in the mass, so perhaps to think of it thus is not correct..............?

[nazard]

"In excelsis" translates literally as "in highs", ie it is plural and not superlative. Whether a translator puts "the" in the English is a matter of judgement, but translating "excelsis" as "highest" is a step away from being literal. Does anyone know what "hosanna" means and why it is not translated?

[alan29]

Wiki is helpful
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hosanna
Our usage "Yipee!!" seems a long way removed from its original meaning "Save us"
There would seem to be a link between the Arrival in Jerusalem on Palm Sunday to bring salvation, and the coming of the Lord in the Eucharist ...... never occurred to me before.

[Southern Comfort]

Hebrew Hosanna is an abbreviation of Aramaic Hosianna (cf. works by Schütz, some old carol texts, etc). It literally means "Save/rescue [us now]!". This is presumably part of the reason why the "Nairobi" WCC translation rendered Hosanna in excelsis as "Come and deliver us, Lord Most High", as famously set by Christopher Walker in his Mannafest Eucharistic Acclamations (see Music for the Mass, vol. I).

The same translation, incidentally, rendered Dominus Deus Sabaoth as "Lord of all powers". A pity that our new version didn't follow this and give us "Holy, Holy Holy Lord God of all powers", which would have been rather easier for composers to set as well as more interesting and less misleading than "hosts".

[gwyn]

Thanks everyone for the information.

While the Sanctus as sung in R.C. churches transaltes "Hosanna in excelsis" as "Hosanna in the highest", the Anglican version translates it as "Glory be to thee O Lord Most High". Both translate the final line of the Benedictus as "Hosanna in the highest".

Can anyone throw any light on how this came about? It's certainly that way in the 1662 bcp.

Gwyn.

[alan29]

Maybe an Anglican liturgy board(if the be such a thing) could answer that one.
Did a bit of Googling and found this
“The Annotated Book of Common Prayer,” edited by Rev. John Henry Blunt, Rivingtons, London, 1866, pages 183-184:
In the Primitive and Mediaeval Liturgies the Sanctus concluded with the words, “Hosannah in the highest, blessed is He that cometh in the Name of the Lord, Hosannah in the highest.” In translating it for the Office of our Prayer Book, the four later words were changed to “Glory to Thee, O Lord, in the highest;” and the present termination was substituted in 1552, thus displacing the Hosannah altogether.
No reason can be assigned for this deviation from ancient custom.
It would seem to pre-date the present BCP

[gwyn]

Thanks Alan. That's very informative.

[organist]

Well this gives pause for thought - we all happily sing Hosanna every week and the link with Palm Sunday is not made? I always thought it meant in the highest heavens as in Gathering Mass. I do think "hosts" is not very helpful and could be confusing.

[Southern Comfort]

Well this gives pause for thought - we all happily sing Hosanna every week and the link with Palm Sunday is not made? I always thought it meant in the highest heavens as in Gathering Mass. I do think "hosts" is not very helpful and could be confusing.

I think it's quite legitimate to translate in excelsis as "in the highest heavens". It's certainly translated that way in various bible versions when the angels sing Gloria in excelsis Deo.

[gwyn]

I was watching a non conformist service (basically some tacky ditties and a sermon) on the UCB TV channel. The preacher, Dr. David Jeremiah, stated that nowhere in the bible are we told that angels sang.

Oh? I thought. Hmm . . .

[Peter]

... Dr. David Jeremiah, stated that nowhere in the Bible are we told that angels sang.

Depends which translation of Luke 2:13-14 you read. According to the Jerusalem Bible they did indeed "sing"; in the RSV and NIV they "said" "Glory to God..."

[mcb]

Depends which translation of Luke 2:13-14 you read. According to the Jerusalem Bible they did indeed "sing"; in the RSV and NIV they "said" "Glory to God..."

dicentium in the Vulgate, λεγόντων in the Greek; both I think mean saying rather than singing. I wonder where the JB got singing from?

[FrGareth]

Depends which translation of Luke 2:13-14 you read. According to the Jerusalem Bible they did indeed "sing"; in the RSV and NIV they "said" "Glory to God..."

dicentium in the Vulgate, λεγόντων in the Greek; both I think mean saying rather than singing. I wonder where the JB got singing from?

“And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying, ‘Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among men with whom he is pleased’ ” (Lk 2:12–14). According to the evangelist, the angels “said” this. But Christianity has always understood that the speech of angels is actually song, in which all the glory of the great joy that they proclaim becomes tangibly present.