This is my first proper post, so with some trepidation, here goes!
Around Christmas (cannot remember the date) I watched the South Bank Show about music education in schools, on which apparently the government is spending more.
At the end of the programme, they gave a summary of church/choir schools in Europe - over 50 in Great Britain, around 6 in France, 1 in Spain and - wait for it - none in Italy!! (Palestrina, where have you gone?!!!)
If we are to look to Rome for guidance liturgically, does anyone have an answer to the apparent paucity of musical education?!
We in England have a choral tradition going back to the 12th/13th century to be proud of, even if it is largely currently under the Anglican umbrella. Can we not export this abundance of talent in some way? I believe (please correct me if I am wrong) that church music in education was a significant part of the way of life.
This brings me to a question more to do with the here and now: could we possibly find ways, via providing very local workshops for our own parishioners, where this is possible, to enable the interested members of our congregations to a) learn to enjoy and improve the singing of the current repertoire, b) use the opportunity to present (perhaps on a tape) some of the finer historical pieces which may be homophonically written and therefore easy enough for a reasonably competent 4 part choir to learn; also to perpetuate the singing of simple plainchant - the root of all Renaissance polyphony, and surely the most prayerful form of music; and c) introduce new music - encouraging young choir members to write for you. What do other members think?
Catholic Musicians - in the congregation?
Moderators: Dom Perignon, Casimir
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Merseysider
- Posts: 430
- Joined: Fri May 07, 2004 11:21 pm
Re: Catholic Musicians - in the congregation?
Hi Claire,
You are presenting three questions here. The first, about poor music education in our schools, makes me sad as I'm old enough to have received an excellent musical education, thanks to the political philosophy of the time and, therefore, the number of peri instrumental teachers, choirs, orchestras and ensembles funded by my local education authority. Those younger than me (I wince if I say "next generation") were faced with funding their own music lessons, buying/renting instruments etc. Talking to a music lecturer friend, recently, he was complaining about the standard of those coming onto his degree courses these days – how he was unable to stage all those great orchestral/choral works which we sang as students.
Your next two questions are both separare and interlinked: encouraging congregational participation and preserving choral tradition. And there are plenty of threads on here which show differences of opinion on which is the most important.
I – and others – would argue that you can have a wonderful sung Mass with no choir presence, no choral music, simply congregational singing. Whereas (sticking my head above the parapet and knowing which of you will shoot me down) you cannot do the same with a choir and no congregational input.
Perhaps I am lucky – last March I started in a new parish with no musical tradition. I was able, therefore, the begin with the congregation, introducing them to a Holy, an acclamation, an Amen, then one or two other other items. When we came to Holy Week I asked for a few volunteers to become cantors and found 12 volunteers.
That group has grown and they now sometimes sing antiphonally with the congregation or simply lead them. Some weeks they sit back in their old seats and just give a lead. At Christmas they sang a short motet and sang harmonies etc.
People often become educated by accident – some of our congregation have told me they find "the dots" really helpful on service sheets. And, if there are people in your parish who would like to listen to, and learn about, polyphony why not run an evening or weekend workshop for them. You could even organise some sort of Evening Prayer where such recorded music becomes an aid to prayer (Lord, I know I'll be shot down for that one).
Of course you can "perpetuate the singing of simple plainchant" if that's what your congregation wants – mine are largely elderly and very impatient with Latin. But I would disagree that "simple plainchant" is "surely the most prayerful form of music". That's very subjective. I love it but, at the moment, it would alienate our congregation who appear to get their spiritual lift from items like Farrell's "My soul is thirsting" and Walker's "Teach me, O Lord".
Look to some of the other threads about your suggestion of introducing "new" music. I recently tried to introduce "Let all mortal flesh keep silence" (12 century?) and was told it was "new". That's all rather relative.
And as for getting younger people more and more involved there isn't anyone who would stand in your way and your parish priest would probably apply for your immediate canonisation.
Your ideas don't belong on this message board – they belong out there in the parish. Just go and do it!
Best wishes,
Merseysider.
You are presenting three questions here. The first, about poor music education in our schools, makes me sad as I'm old enough to have received an excellent musical education, thanks to the political philosophy of the time and, therefore, the number of peri instrumental teachers, choirs, orchestras and ensembles funded by my local education authority. Those younger than me (I wince if I say "next generation") were faced with funding their own music lessons, buying/renting instruments etc. Talking to a music lecturer friend, recently, he was complaining about the standard of those coming onto his degree courses these days – how he was unable to stage all those great orchestral/choral works which we sang as students.
Your next two questions are both separare and interlinked: encouraging congregational participation and preserving choral tradition. And there are plenty of threads on here which show differences of opinion on which is the most important.
I – and others – would argue that you can have a wonderful sung Mass with no choir presence, no choral music, simply congregational singing. Whereas (sticking my head above the parapet and knowing which of you will shoot me down) you cannot do the same with a choir and no congregational input.
Perhaps I am lucky – last March I started in a new parish with no musical tradition. I was able, therefore, the begin with the congregation, introducing them to a Holy, an acclamation, an Amen, then one or two other other items. When we came to Holy Week I asked for a few volunteers to become cantors and found 12 volunteers.
That group has grown and they now sometimes sing antiphonally with the congregation or simply lead them. Some weeks they sit back in their old seats and just give a lead. At Christmas they sang a short motet and sang harmonies etc.
People often become educated by accident – some of our congregation have told me they find "the dots" really helpful on service sheets. And, if there are people in your parish who would like to listen to, and learn about, polyphony why not run an evening or weekend workshop for them. You could even organise some sort of Evening Prayer where such recorded music becomes an aid to prayer (Lord, I know I'll be shot down for that one).
Of course you can "perpetuate the singing of simple plainchant" if that's what your congregation wants – mine are largely elderly and very impatient with Latin. But I would disagree that "simple plainchant" is "surely the most prayerful form of music". That's very subjective. I love it but, at the moment, it would alienate our congregation who appear to get their spiritual lift from items like Farrell's "My soul is thirsting" and Walker's "Teach me, O Lord".
Look to some of the other threads about your suggestion of introducing "new" music. I recently tried to introduce "Let all mortal flesh keep silence" (12 century?) and was told it was "new". That's all rather relative.
And as for getting younger people more and more involved there isn't anyone who would stand in your way and your parish priest would probably apply for your immediate canonisation.
Your ideas don't belong on this message board – they belong out there in the parish. Just go and do it!
Best wishes,
Merseysider.
Hi Merseysider,
Firstly, a big thank you for all your encouragement! I think we may have been at crossed purposes regarding my first paragraph - I was lamenting the lack of musical education/ choir/church schools in Italy, not this country - therefore lack of direction from Rome - if the South Bank Show is to be believed.
Like you, I am old enough to have had an excellent classical training in music, and the system is different now - perhaps allowing for more creativity?? My experience in my local parish of an older generation than me - if that is possible!! - is that they would love to see a return to Latin masses - occasionally! But, agreed, it is subjective and not applicable to every parish, or resources in that parish.
Regarding your last piece of advice - 'just go out and do it' - I wish it were that easy, but pray for me to be given the opportunity!
Firstly, a big thank you for all your encouragement! I think we may have been at crossed purposes regarding my first paragraph - I was lamenting the lack of musical education/ choir/church schools in Italy, not this country - therefore lack of direction from Rome - if the South Bank Show is to be believed.
Like you, I am old enough to have had an excellent classical training in music, and the system is different now - perhaps allowing for more creativity?? My experience in my local parish of an older generation than me - if that is possible!! - is that they would love to see a return to Latin masses - occasionally! But, agreed, it is subjective and not applicable to every parish, or resources in that parish.
Regarding your last piece of advice - 'just go out and do it' - I wish it were that easy, but pray for me to be given the opportunity!
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Merseysider
- Posts: 430
- Joined: Fri May 07, 2004 11:21 pm
Catholic Musicians - in the congregation?
A couple of points, not directly picking up on comments already made, but definitely "on-topic".
1. A lady who only attends rarely (i.e when the PP is away - he has upset her by not addressing some serious issues she has about the parish) was there last week, and she sings her socks off. She inspired a largish congregation by being seen as well as heard to participate in all the sung parts of the Mass.
2. In my experience, if the Priest sings, people will take their cue from him. We had a supply priest once who began Mass with a SUNG "The Lord be with you". This set the tone for the Mass to be SUNG - and the people RESPONDED to this.
3. On the negative side, we had another supply priest for several weeks who used the opening hymn to look up the opening prayer; the Gloria to choose a preface and the Sanctus to choose the EP. The effect on (non) participation was amazing.
The funniest time was in another Parish, when the PP noticed that the collecting plates hadn't been put out by the sacristan, and went back to the Sacristy during the entrance hymn. When he shut his hymnbook, the entire congregation did the same and stopped singing!
Another time, in my own Parish, at Benediction one Sunday a lady with a very strong voice stopped singing and went to get something she had forgotten from her car. Everyone else stopped.......I heard later that several people had said that "oh, I thought I knew it, but when xxxx stopped, i thought she didn't know it - and she knows everything, so I couldn't possibly know it..." The hymn? TANTUM ERGO!!!!!!!!!!!
1. A lady who only attends rarely (i.e when the PP is away - he has upset her by not addressing some serious issues she has about the parish) was there last week, and she sings her socks off. She inspired a largish congregation by being seen as well as heard to participate in all the sung parts of the Mass.
2. In my experience, if the Priest sings, people will take their cue from him. We had a supply priest once who began Mass with a SUNG "The Lord be with you". This set the tone for the Mass to be SUNG - and the people RESPONDED to this.
3. On the negative side, we had another supply priest for several weeks who used the opening hymn to look up the opening prayer; the Gloria to choose a preface and the Sanctus to choose the EP. The effect on (non) participation was amazing.
The funniest time was in another Parish, when the PP noticed that the collecting plates hadn't been put out by the sacristan, and went back to the Sacristy during the entrance hymn. When he shut his hymnbook, the entire congregation did the same and stopped singing!
Another time, in my own Parish, at Benediction one Sunday a lady with a very strong voice stopped singing and went to get something she had forgotten from her car. Everyone else stopped.......I heard later that several people had said that "oh, I thought I knew it, but when xxxx stopped, i thought she didn't know it - and she knows everything, so I couldn't possibly know it..." The hymn? TANTUM ERGO!!!!!!!!!!!
Um...well, this is already happening in some places. Several people run little day workshops or weekends, SSG runs about four every year on each main compass point. They take a lot of organising though. Need a little leadership to promote them successfully, costs need to be met for guest speakers etc.could we possibly find ways, via providing very local workshops for our own parishioners
Most importantly I think such events need to be promoted to the wider local Christian community, not just one or two churches. This does take some doing, as we are not all in the habit of regularly communicating with other churches in our local area (unfortunately), but such efforts are usually rewarded with a healthy turnout, and as such, meet the bills. I find the best way to do that is just pick up the yellow pages and just ring up other churches cold. Up to you how you do it.
Catholic Musicians - in the congregation?
Firstly, many thanks for your replies and encouragement! Keep 'em coming! Hi Merseysider, been there and done that with diocesan liturgy commission - perhaps in future, there will be an opportunity!
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excathedra
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:11 pm
- Location: Malvern, UK
Re: Catholic Musicians - in the congregation?
claire wrote:This brings me to a question more to do with the here and now: could we possibly find ways, via providing very local workshops for our own parishioners...
I think many SSG members have organised local workshops from time to time down the years - I know I have! The present Trustees are very keen to promote local activity - after all, as you say, Summer Schools are few and far between. The Trustees have recently revived the SSG diocesan representative idea (which goes right back to the very beginnings of the Society). We received an excellent response to our appeal for volunteers, and there are plans in hand to invite all these good people to a information/networking day later this Spring, to discuss and plan the way forward. Of course, we are not expecting the reps to have to start organising a whole load of events - though they can if they want to! No, it's just that the SSG needs a named local focus who can encourage others to try things, and who can liaise with the Trustees if their support is needed.
I would encourage SSG members who want to run local workshops to contact me, and I can put you in touch with the local rep and also discuss how the Society might be able to support and encourage you.
Alan