Episcopal ordination

[Nick Baty]

Often the GR has the text 'Ave Maria' (or similar) set for the offertory text to the BVM for Marian feasts.

The GR is at least using scriptural texts but I'm still not sure about the suitability of this text at this point. But I'm an old git and can't get used to everything that's going on these days.

Peter, am I reading the wrong edition of GIRM?

GIRM 74. The procession bringing the gifts is accompanied by the Offertory chant (cf. no. 37b), which continues at least until the gifts have been placed on the altar. The norms on the manner of singing are the same as for the Entrance chant (cf. no. 48). Singing may always accompany the rite at the offertory, even when there is no procession with the gifts.

GIRM 48. The singing at this time is done either alternately by the choir and the people or in a similar way by the cantor and the people, or entirely by the people, or by the choir alone. In the dioceses of England and Wales the options for the Entrance Chant are: (1) the antiphon and psalm from the Graduale Romanum or the Graduale Simplex; or (2) a song from another collection of psalms and antiphons, the text of which has been approved by the Bishops’ Conference of England and Wales. If there is no singing at the Entrance, the antiphon in the Missal is recited either by the faithful, or by some of them, or by a lector; otherwise, it is recited by the priest himself, who may even adapt it as an introductory explanation (cf. no. 31).

....and the option for a song appropriate to the day.

In which case I presume a song about the Lord's work through the Virgin Mary would be highly appropriate. But a song to her...? Surely not.

[Peter Jones]

Peter, am I reading the wrong edition of GIRM?

Yes. You are not quoting from GIRM as it is now in the Missal. I posted the changes in a previous thread somewhere.

But a song to her...? Surely not.

I think you'll have to read page 6 of the ordination book and take that one up with Bishop Egan himself. However, I surmise that the inclusion of this hymn had something (a lot?) to do with the Stella Maris nature of its text, the connections of the city of Portsmouth with the sea and the presence of the Royal Navy at the celebration - represented by the Commodore of HMS Nelson. More than that, i cannot say.

I look forward to a link to a recording and especially to hearing what Paul Inwood has achieved in setting the Te Deum.

[Nick Baty]

So nothing to do with the Eucharist then!

[DoMPortsmouth]

The service can be seen again via http://www.churchservices.tv/portsmouthcathedral - although the sound tends to drop out now and again.

[Peter Jones]

The service can be seen again via http://www.churchservices.tv/portsmouthcathedral - although the sound tends to drop out now and again.

Many thanks. I will now grab a coffee and watch/listen.

[Nick Baty]

Was about to join you –although with a glass of wine – but it says "No stream available". Am I doing something wrong?

Got it! Link lower down page: http://www.churchservices.tv/portsmouth ... ed/MEWG4qH

[mcb]

But a song to her...? Surely not.

I'm afraid this is wrong, Nick. There are plenty of propers addressed to her, especially, but not only, on Marian feasts. Arguing against O purest of creatures is about taste, not about liturgical propriety.

[mcb]

p.s. I thought Catherine Christmas sang beautifully today.

[Nick Baty]

Arguing against O purest of creatures is about taste, not about liturgical propriety.

Couldn't disagree more.

p.s. I thought Catherine Christmas sang beautifully today.

Couldn't agree more.

[Peter Jones]

But a song to her...? Surely not.

I'm afraid this is wrong, Nick. There are plenty of propers addressed to her, especially, but not only, on Marian feasts

See Missal p.1098ff - Entrance Antiphons Common of BVM, for example.

p.s. I thought Catherine Christmas sang beautifully today.

Watched it now - yes she did. A lot of work goes into celebrations such as this. Congratulations to all involved. (Was Mr Inwood wearing a new suit?)

[Peter Jones]

Arguing against O purest of creatures is about taste, not about liturgical propriety.

Couldn't disagree more.

If you are trying to argue that it is inappropriate to mention (or request) the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary at the Offertory, I suggest you look at the liturgical tradition of the Church in the orations of the Masses of the Common. Try the Collects on pages 1098 and 1102 of the Missal for a start and the Prayer over the Offerings on p.1099. Lex orandi, lex credendi.

Enough please!

[Nick Baty]

See Missal p.1098ff - Entrance Antiphons Common of BVM, for example.

EA1,2,3,5,7, Christmas 2 – are addressed to BVM (didn't we have a reformation over this kind of thing?) and EA4,6,7, Avent, Christmas 1, Easter are all about BVM.

Lots of precedent for offertory antiphons to the Virgin in the Processional. But what does this say about the functionality of music in the offertory procession? The action says one thing, the word and music say another.

[Peter Jones]

The action says one thing, the word and music say another.

I think you need to start a new thread for that and leave this one for the Ordination.

[Nick Baty]

I simply asked the question. And now, I give up.

[Peter Jones]

Just in case anyone now wants to question the treatment of the Lamb of God - this was a good example of an acceptable use of a troped text, ending with the 'grant us peace' petition. G'nite all.