"Ah-men" or "Ay-men" ("Ay" as in "day" etc)

[quaeritor]

The forum's a bit quiet at the moment so let me exercise a minor niggle that's been bothering me for some time.

When I was a lad (easily biddable) I was dragooned into always saying/singing "Ah-men" when using Latin, but "Ay-men" when using English. Now it seems it's always "Ah-men". ~When did that happen? Some things just don't sound right - as I remember it, in the days before we got "I tell you solemnly . . . " Our Lord always said "Ay-men Ay-men I say to you . . . " (and can you imagine anyone ever in a debating situation saying "I tell you solemnly . . . ") - and the jazz/blues Amen often used by "folk" bands at the end of the Eucharistic Prayer - can you imagine Nina Simone singing "Ah - - men, Ah - - men" etc?

Well, ok, it's not the most important topic you'll ever encounter on teh forum, but I'd still like to know.

Just asking

Q

[Southern Comfort]

The Americans have this peculiar system whereby they always say Ay-men but always sing Ah-men. Don't know how that came about.

I did encounter one congregation (on a US airforce base in England) where, when I used a call-response Great Amen and sang Ah-men, they all with one voice {i]sang[/i] back Ay-men! But I think that was exceptional. The only instance that I know of where Americans ever sing Ay-men these days is the one cited by Quaeritor (the "Mary had a baby" multiple Amen setting).

I can remember growing up in England saying Ay-men. We did not sing in English at Mass in those days! I do not remember precisely when the change occurred, but it was around the time of Vatican II and congregational singing in English at Mass starting up.

I can also remember being told as a kid by someone that Protestants says Ay-men but Catholics say Ah-men. That surely can't be right?!

There's a similar problem with "aye" as in "with thy saints for aye", which is usually pronounced as "eye" to rhyme with "high" in the previous line, but which quite a lot of people pronounce as "eh?"

[quaeritor]

I can also remember being told as a kid by someone that Protestants says Ay-men but Catholics say Ah-men. That surely can't be right?!

One of the things that prompted me to raise this weighty matter was hearing my neighbouring Anglican congregation (and minister) all without exception saying "Ah-men"

Q

[dunstan]

I remember being taken aback the first time I went to mass in Australia and the opening greeting sounding like a Monty Python sketch...

"In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"
"EYE-MEN!"

As for the English, I always thought it was a catholic/anglican thing, like RE-fectory and re-FEC-tory.

[Nick Baty]

I can also remember being told as a kid by someone that Protestants says Ay-men but Catholics say Ah-men.

That's exactly what I was told by my dad who was a convert.

[keitha]

Interesting Nick. I was always told the opposite by my Dad - who is both a Northerner and CofE. I think 'Ahmen' came in spoken form when we started to sing the Mass in English and everyone got used to singing the 'Great Ahmen' (when did you ever hear it referred to as the 'Great Aymen'?).

[Nick Baty]

Interesting Nick. I was always told the opposite by my Dad - who is both a Northerner and CofE.

Red Rose or White?

'Ahmen' came in spoken form when we started to sing the Mass in English

What about when we were singing Tantum Ergo in Latin at Benediction?

[alan29]

Pretty sure it was we dead common Catholics who said Aymen, and considerably posher Anglicans who said Aaaaahmen when I was a kid. ...... not that we Catholics were exactly encouraged to say anything at all in Church back then.

[Nick Baty]

Well I'm not quite as old as some on here, but I've never heard Aymen in a Catholic Church or school over the last 50 years!

[blackthorn fairy]

Definitely 'Ah-men'. The only time I heard 'Ay-men' as a child was in American films. Then I became a Catholic and heard it in England, to my surprise (but not often). However, I haven't heard it for ages. Perhaps it was a generational thing? Pre-war?

[mcb]

Our bishop says Ay-men /eɪˈmen/, and he grew up post-war. At the end of Midnight Mass last Christmas he instructed the assembly to respond Amen at the appropriate points during the solemn blessing: he said /eɪˈmen/, we all (it sounded like) said Ah-men /ɑːˈmen/.

[musicus]

Ah, mcb, I love it when you talk phonetic.

[JW]

What about "Ah-women" or "Ay-women"?

[musicus]

There's always one.

[keitha]

Nick Baty wrote:

keitha wrote:Interesting Nick. I was always told the opposite by my Dad - who is both a Northerner and CofE.

Red Rose or White?

keitha wrote:'Ahmen' came in spoken form when we started to sing the Mass in English

What about when we were singing Tantum Ergo in Latin at Benediction?

Red, of course (from 'Ainsworth' - village in Lancashire - but Dad comes from Bolton, now in somewhere called 'Greater Manchester' - yuk!).

Tantum Ergo - Ah-men, surely - not Ei-men (always happy to talk phonetics when MCB's around).

How on earth did we manage to spin this out for so long?