dmu3tem wrote:This suggests to me that my assertion that most Catholic congregations came to singing mainly through hymnody does have something going for it. You could though, counter by pointing out that most modern Catholic Hymnals also incorporate Mass settings and some have many Responsorial Psalm and Gospel Acclamation settings. The question then is 'which came first? - hymns or Mass settings or something else. This again is something that is very hard to answer statistically; but there is a pointer in the fact that in terms of notice-boards many Catholic churches are only set up to give hymn numbers. When other items (Mass settings, Antiphons, Psalms etc) are used they are either announced verbally, or inserted in the weekly newsletter, or the hymn number system is adapted in some fashion or other. What this suggests is that, subliminally at least, many people still think of singing as connected first and foremost with hymnody.
I think your suggestion that hymns came first would be supported by the preface in the 1968 edition of "The Parish Mass Book" written by Cardinal Heenan which says that "soon we shall have vernacular settings of the Mass in new musical settings but we shall not have satisfactory words and music for the Mass until after a long period of experiemnt. Meenwhile the English tradition of hymn-singing will be preserved by singing at Mass." The publishers' preface also refers specifically to hymns appropriate to the different parts of the mass.
londonchurchman wrote:I think your suggestion that hymns came first would be supported by the preface in the 1968 edition of "The Parish Mass Book" written by Cardinal Heenan which says that "soon we shall have vernacular settings of the Mass in new musical settings but we shall not have satisfactory words and music for the Mass until after a long period of experiemnt. Meenwhile the English tradition of hymn-singing will be preserved by singing at Mass." The publishers' preface also refers specifically to hymns appropriate to the different parts of the mass.
Cardinal Heenan had clearly forgotten that Fr Wilfrid Trotman's People's English Mass had appeared in 1966, the same year as the original edition of the hymn book Praise the Lord, and had been selling like hot cakes ever since.
The original edition of Praise the Lord contains a section at the beginning of Hymns for the different parts of the Mass which largely correspond to Fr. Clifford HowellS. J.'s compilation'The Mass Together'. My home parish and parish school used this from Summer 1961 onwards. It was usually a Dialogue Mass (in Latin of course) with recited Mass parts. This replaced in 1961 (new P.P.) the fairly normal pattern of one Missa Cantata a week which was Last Mass. All others were Low with a few fairly random hymns at the Children's Mass at 9a.m . After this priest came High Mass became a rarity sung by a scratch choir as the old S.A.T.B. choir had disbanded. I remember the school singing a Missa Cantata for his Silver Jubilee about 1963, Bevenot's Mass in Sol. Teachers sang the Propers.
Southern Comfort wrote:Cardinal Heenan had clearly forgotten that Fr Wilfrid Trotman's People's English Mass had appeared in 1966, the same year as the original edition of the hymn book Praise the Lord, and had been selling like hot cakes ever since.
Of course you're right, and I had forgotten too. I seem to remember reading about Anthony Milner's mass which I think appeared about the same time and was well thought of by musicians, but too complex for congregations at that time. And when did the original Dom. Gregory Murray setting come out? I would love to hear what these early settings sounded like, but I suspect there are no copies available.
Dom Gregory Murray's First People's Mass was first published in 1950 (I am relying on my memory here as I am away from home). This of course was in Latin, but nonetheless a pathbreaking Congregational Mass. English versions of this were later produced, including one for Anglican Holy Communion. His 'New People's Mass' (publ. I think by Kevin Mayhew) I believe came out in the 1970s. There are several other Mass settings that he composed, both in English and Latin, including a 'Folk Mass' for Kevin Mayhew 'who asked for it!'.
The mss of these Masses and much besides can be found in the archives at Downside.
Parallel with Murray's work are the Masses by Laurence Bevenot. There are four in 'Re, Mi, Sol and Fa' published by Carys in the 1950s (several different editions so the publication dates can be rather confusing). These use his 1+2 = 3 formula i.e. a Mass in two parts with accompaniment. Each of the two parts can be sung separately or together (by a divided congregation, or a cantor and Congregation, or a unison choir and congregation).
There was also his First English Mass and his Second English Mass, the latter quite and elaborate setting for congregation, organ and optional SATB choir (again I would need to check the scores to be absolutely certain about this). The Second English Mass was (I believe) composed for Liverpool Catholic Cathedral.
The mss sketches for all these Masses and much besides can be seen in the archives at Ampleforth.
dmu3tem wrote:Dom Gregory Murray's First People's Mass was first published in 1950 (I am relying on my memory here as I am away from home). This of course was in Latin, but nonetheless a pathbreaking Congregational Mass. English versions of this were later produced, including one for Anglican Holy Communion. His 'New People's Mass' (publ. I think by Kevin Mayhew) I believe came out in the 1970s. There are several other Mass settings that he composed, both in English and Latin, including a 'Folk Mass' for Kevin Mayhew 'who asked for it!'.
The mss of these Masses and much besides can be found in the archives at Downside.
Parallel with Murray's work are the Masses by Laurence Bevenot. There are four in 'Re, Mi, Sol and Fa' published by Carys in the 1950s (several different editions so the publication dates can be rather confusing). These use his 1+2 = 3 formula i.e. a Mass in two parts with accompaniment. Each of the two parts can be sung separately or together (by a divided congregation, or a cantor and Congregation, or a unison choir and congregation).
There was also his First English Mass and his Second English Mass, the latter quite and elaborate setting for congregation, organ and optional SATB choir (again I would need to check the scores to be absolutely certain about this). The Second English Mass was (I believe) composed for Liverpool Catholic Cathedral.
The mss sketches for all these Masses and much besides can be seen in the archives at Ampleforth.
Thanks so much for mentioning the AGM Latin original. You beat me to it! I discovered a copy of this just a few months ago.
LB's second Mass was indeed composed for Liverpool.
Bevenot also produced a very singable set of melodies in re, mi, sol etc. for the propers of the Mass. A small dark brown hardback,I seem to remember. I still posess the accompaniment book. I contains Music for the Easter Vigil, Sequences and interludes.
Southern Comfort wrote:LB's second Mass was indeed composed for Liverpool.
An antidote to Pierre Henry's Messe de Liverpool? (So who in here has ever heard that, apart from me and, I guess, Southern Comfort? I even possess a vinyl LP somewhere.)
Didn't Bill Tamblyn produce an Our Father for congregational speaking (a piacere) - prepared piano* and odd bits of percussion - in 1978?
* an upright piano, if I remember correctly - "See the wicked bracing their bow; they are fixing their arrows on the string to shoot the upright............." Psalm 10
Any opinions expressed are my own, not those of the Archdiocese of Birmingham Liturgy Commission, Church Music Committee. Website
Not an Our Father, but it was indeed a prepared piano; and Bill improvised on it as an accompaniment to Psalm 2, declaimed molto dramaticoso by John Ainslie, I seem to recall.
Why this tumult among nations, among peoples this useless murmuring? They arise, the kings of the earth, princes plot against the Lord and his Anointed. "Come, let us break their fetters, come, let us cast off their yoke."
He who sits in the heavens laughs, the Lord is laughing them to scorn. Then he will speak in his anger, his rage will strike them with terror. "It is I who have set up my king on Zion, my holy mountain."
(I will announce the decree of the Lord.)
The Lord said to me: "You are my Son. It is I who have begotten you this day. Ask and I will shall bequeath you the nations, put the ends of the earth in your possession. With a rod of iron you will break them, shatter them like a potter's jar."
Now, O kings, understand, take warning, rulers of the earth; serve the Lord with awe and trembling, pay him your homage lest he be angry and you perish; for suddenly his anger will blaze.
Blessed are they who put their trust in God.
Somewhere I have a cassette tape of this. Could turn it into an MP3 if anyone is interested.
I have been to four more churches - I won't mention the three silent parishes - but instead report happily that congregational singing is alive and well in Holy Apostles, Pimlico. The hymn lyrics were all set out on a specially printed sheet. It was a joy to experiece the congregation singing out and engaging willingly and joyfully especially as there was no choir or cantor present.
In my own parish I suppose one irritation I have with regards to hymn singing is the reluctance to try out 'new hymns' or hymns that "no one will have heard of". Admittedly as we currently don't have a choir, albeit an excellent organist in charge of a very capable 2-manual Makin, you can't expect people in the congregation just to pick the hymn up straightaway and start belting out verse 2. Our PP has a good singing voice, but I'm not sure he'd be happy leading a 'new hymn' on his own with the organ. We have people in the congregation with good singing voices who would be confident enough to 'do a run through' before the start of Mass, however, so with a bit of prior preparation there's no reason why we can't learn and try out new hymns.
Sometimes I think people feel most comfortable just singing an old favourite recessional such as 'How great thou art', 'Now thank we all our God', or 'Praise my soul', or 'Hail Queen of heaven'. Even the slightly more obscure 'traddies' such as 'Christ is made the sure foundation', 'All my hope on God is founded', 'O worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness' or 'Thou whose almighty Word' rarely, if ever get chosen (the latter usually makes an appearance on Trinity Sunday but not elsewhere nowadays). The likes of 'Here I am Lord', 'Colours of Day', 'All that I am' and 'Go the Mass' is ended' are sung a bit too much for my liking, not just in my parish, but quite a few other Catholic churches from what I gather. I'd be very happy if we tried out for example 'Oh the Word of my Lord' at the start, 'God beyond all Names' at the Offertory and 'Thanks be to God' at the end, even in place of more traditional hymns of a similar nature respectively. Unfortunately I'm not sure whether some people in the congregation would feel the same way!
pdsfd wrote:In my own parish I suppose one irritation I have with regards to hymn singing is the reluctance to try out 'new hymns' or hymns that "no one will have heard of". Admittedly as we currently don't have a choir, albeit an excellent organist in charge of a very capable 2-manual Makin, you can't expect people in the congregation just to pick the hymn up straightaway and start belting out verse 2. Our PP has a good singing voice, but I'm not sure he'd be happy leading a 'new hymn' on his own with the organ. We have people in the congregation with good singing voices who would be confident enough to 'do a run through' before the start of Mass, however, so with a bit of prior preparation there's no reason why we can't learn and try out new hymns.
Sometimes I think people feel most comfortable just singing an old favourite recessional such as 'How great thou art', 'Now thank we all our God', or 'Praise my soul', or 'Hail Queen of heaven'. Even the slightly more obscure 'traddies' such as 'Christ is made the sure foundation', 'All my hope on God is founded', 'O worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness' or 'Thou whose almighty Word' rarely, if ever get chosen (the latter usually makes an appearance on Trinity Sunday but not elsewhere nowadays). The likes of 'Here I am Lord', 'Colours of Day', 'All that I am' and 'Go the Mass' is ended' are sung a bit too much for my liking, not just in my parish, but quite a few other Catholic churches from what I gather. I'd be very happy if we tried out for example 'Oh the Word of my Lord' at the start, 'God beyond all Names' at the Offertory and 'Thanks be to God' at the end, even in place of more traditional hymns of a similar nature respectively. Unfortunately I'm not sure whether some people in the congregation would feel the same way!
I agree with you that "Here I am Lord", Colours of Day "All that I am" appear far too often and they sound so lightweight compared to the traditional hymns that I think of them as children's songs (I mean why chose Here I am Lord for a funeral mass over Abide with Me?). This is strange given that the traditional hymns you mention are no harder to sing. I always thought of "O worship the Lord" as an Epiphany hymn though.
pdsfd wrote:In my own parish I suppose one irritation I have with regards to hymn singing is the reluctance to try out 'new hymns' or hymns that "no one will have heard of". Admittedly as we currently don't have a choir, albeit an excellent organist in charge of a very capable 2-manual Makin, you can't expect people in the congregation just to pick the hymn up straightaway and start belting out verse 2. Our PP has a good singing voice, but I'm not sure he'd be happy leading a 'new hymn' on his own with the organ. We have people in the congregation with good singing voices who would be confident enough to 'do a run through' before the start of Mass, however, so with a bit of prior preparation there's no reason why we can't learn and try out new hymns.
Sometimes I think people feel most comfortable just singing an old favourite recessional such as 'How great thou art', 'Now thank we all our God', or 'Praise my soul', or 'Hail Queen of heaven'. Even the slightly more obscure 'traddies' such as 'Christ is made the sure foundation', 'All my hope on God is founded', 'O worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness' or 'Thou whose almighty Word' rarely, if ever get chosen (the latter usually makes an appearance on Trinity Sunday but not elsewhere nowadays). The likes of 'Here I am Lord', 'Colours of Day', 'All that I am' and 'Go the Mass' is ended' are sung a bit too much for my liking, not just in my parish, but quite a few other Catholic churches from what I gather. I'd be very happy if we tried out for example 'Oh the Word of my Lord' at the start, 'God beyond all Names' at the Offertory and 'Thanks be to God' at the end, even in place of more traditional hymns of a similar nature respectively. Unfortunately I'm not sure whether some people in the congregation would feel the same way!
I agree with you that "Here I am Lord", Colours of Day "All that I am" appear far too often and they sound so lightweight compared to the traditional hymns that I think of them as children's songs (I mean why chose Here I am Lord for a funeral mass over Abide with Me?). This is strange given that the traditional hymns you mention are no harder to sing. I always thought of "O worship the Lord" as an Epiphany hymn though.
Our previous PP chose the hymns himself and we had O worship the Lord throughout the year; Epiphany, Summer, Christ the King... Also remember it being on Songs of Praise around September time once. Strangely enough I don't ever remember our previous parish priest choosing Hail, Queen of heaven or Bring flowers of the rarest. He wasn't shy of Marian hymns though as we often sung O Purest of creatures and Sing of Mary. Perhaps there's a case to be made about certain hymns being too 'staple Catholic'? (That or he just didn't like them!)
I suspect that "O worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness" has tied itself to Epiphany because gold and incense get a mention. If makes a snorting good hymn at the Offertory and at any time of the year too.
Gwyn wrote:I suspect that "O worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness" has tied itself to Epiphany because gold and incense get a mention. If makes a snorting good hymn at the Offertory and at any time of the year too.
I have just looked it up. It was written by J Monsell (an Anglican) as an Epiphany hymn, but having looked at all the verses again, I agree it offers scope for more. He also wrote the wonderful hymn "Fight the Good fight" which is a joy to sing.
