music as a primary generating force in a grrrrrr

[oopsorganist]

Music as a primary generating force in an anti- liturgical culture. John Ainslie alluded to this in another recent thread from a recent article.
Aha! That is what happened this morning then.

At last we have made some moves towards establshing a Liturgy Planning group (hooray) and did this be general consent of active bodies on Easter Sunday. I have tried to get the Bible Study Group (dear me) to address this or to swing into that kind of direction - but to no avail. Liturgy planning now to include school involvement and to be done by someone else and not me (hooray).

But today horror of horrors, when meeting to think about Pentecost it all degenerated into a hymn choosing session. There were no ideas towards Liturgy, no adressing of reading of the day or Antiphons or other ideas because someone went to fetch some hymn books. And that was that.

Same as in past years when a certain group of people called themselves "the song group" and spent hours chewing over hymns sometimes with angry passion, I just lose the will to live. I did put in my two pennorth but was talked down.

I am sure it is not because I want to choose the hymns. This is a burden. I try to balance the music between old and new and to ensure that the congregation can join in and it is something of a long term project even if I plan on paper late in the day, I have some ideas about what directions to go in and some new music that is being introduced and other things consolidated.

I don't know how to move them forwards without causing offence. What comes easiest from my mouth is along the lines of "Please don't make me sit here while you look up hymns and then debate their various merits for half an hour before doing the same with some other hymns someone has just thought of."

I could just duck out and hand it all over to such a commitee and then just do as they ask - I did that well for many years and smiled to myself. I'd prefer that situation if the peoples choosing had some idea what they were doing.

At least the Methodists plan from their reading and hymn choices - too many Catholics just think the hymns are the content of the Mass and I do wonder at how little we know. So much of our Liturgy is already planned and sorted it would make a lot of sense to go with what we are given and just leave the hymns alone.

Rant over.

[organist]

I sympathise. For many years I chose the hymns and then passed the list to the priest who seldom queried anything! In my Anglican life I have had regular meetings with the vicar and interesting discussions about choices. I should have thought Pentecost more or less chose itself? Maybe for major feasts one should try to repeat from previous years? Just a thought!

[oopsorganist]

Yes you are right. I would have gone pretty much with last year and there are some obvioius choices. But if you let a group loose on it (and they seem to be at a loss to think of obvious choices) then you get lots of debate. You get to make four alright choices (but I would not have put Shine Jesus Shine at the Offertory) and then someone says well "What about Come Down O Love Divine?" and then we start again. Someone else thinks that "Soul of my Saviour is the best choice for Communion and round we go again.

I know for a fact that the florist there would not be best pleased if I told her what flowers to get etc.

But in music we want participation so it seems extra churlish to insist well, that the musician/planner knows best. Planning is a dreadful burden to me but sitting through half an hour of dithering is just a bit too much like torture. Worse thing is that when I suggest that hymns are unimportant especially the last hymn I am battered down like the spawn of Satan.

Been there, got the t shirt, enough already. I take control or I accept the guidance of an equal planner but I ain't doing the committee thing.

But I do know that Breath on me breath of God went down like nothing last time twas on the menu .......
..... and I am not singing Come Down O Love Divine on my own which is what would happen.

How do I get them back on track to plan Liturgy - read ahead - have interesting ideas to engage and encourage others without saying "Step away from the hynm books or I ain't joining in this meeting".

[IncenseTom]

I also sympathise entirely. In the parish where I currently play the organ there have been some real to-do's over hymns in the 18 months that i've been here.
There are a handful of folk (one or two choir members included) who nearly always pick at something after Mass. The hymns are choisen by myself and 2 or 3 members of the choir although anyone is welcome to help.
Last week we had some really good hymns - the singing (hymns and Mass parts) was reallt the best i've heard it at this parish. So, off I trot to have coffee after Mass to the social centre where there is a piano......
One of the busy-bodies asked a lady who plays the piano if he could sing a few hymns so off he goes, until......Shine Jesus Shine

This then errupts (not being over-dramatic) into a full scale debate about - "Whay can't we sing Shine Jesus Shine?" and "We have to sing hymns for children to get the children involved"
(The PP has a permanant veto on Shine Jesus Shine)

I dowed the coffee and got out.

Hymns are wonderful, but they really do cause a lot of arguments. Folk would complain a lot more if we started singing the words of the Entrance, Offertory and Communion antiphons every week. That said, I do see the need to have more of a focus on the words given to us in the Propers of the Mass. A balancing act indeed.

[organist]

I wonder why the PP has banned Shine Jesus shine? Seems a bit drastic! You are right hymns and their tunes divide as much as unite!
Practical suggestion - suggest a short lectio divina session on the gospel of the day you are discussing. Make sure everyone has the text and ask people to sya what word strikes them. Then reread it and do the same thing. Sometimes when this happens I have found I abandon my own agenda and really listen to others. Also Pentecost is the classic when we MUST focus our minds on the Holy Spirit. Soul of my saviour will NOT do! What happened about the obligatory sequence I wonder? Taize Veni sancte spiritus is another idea or the lovely Chris Walker setting.
I am really surprised people do not know "Come down O love divine"! Choose for several weeks and teach it!

[VML]

My first reaction to your thread, oops, was to go back to the thread I started last year, 'How many planners.?.'
We have had an interesting year. We have a fairly good base of new Mass music being sung, but hymns are still a bug bear. I have had four Sundays off, sitting in the congregation for three of them. This morning's hymns were a mix. 'Majesty,': 'Jesus who died,now glorified' OK, but 'As I kneel' at Offertory..? But it's May, and PP's favourite and I have opted out of their planning meetings so can have nothing to say.
I have to say that our growing and ever more international congregation do sing, and next week, I'm back and we will for the first time sing the Sequence, straight through to the Webbe tune. I am learning to relax and let go a little.