Sistine & Westminster choirs

[Peter Jones]

http://www.zenit.org/article-34744?l=english

[Peter Jones]

Compare and contrast:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24MbRHx1xEw&feature=fvwrel - and enter into the debate as to which Westminster Choir this is, perhaps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dp65klG2Ars&feature=related

[docmattc]

I was due to be at Westminster for this on Sunday evening. Sadly signal failures conspired to prevent me getting there. Alas I can't give a report of the concert, but could give an indepth critique of the trackside graffiti by Alexandra Palace.

[VML]

No contest!

[Southern Comfort]

Compare and contrast:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24MbRHx1xEw&feature=fvwrel - and enter into the debate as to which Westminster Choir this is, perhaps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dp65klG2Ars&feature=related

The first extract is definitely Westminster Abbey, not Westminster Cathedral. Listening to the men gives the game away immediately.

As far as the Sistine Chapel Choir is concerned, the appointment of Mgr Giuseppe Liberto was intended to deal with the problems that the choir had experienced over the previous century and more — in other words, to deal with the men of the choir.

Under Perosi and Bartolucci, neither of whom were musicians of the first rank, the men were allowed to persist in singing in a way which could be described as solistic rather than choral. They sang Palestrina as if it were Pucccini. I think I have previously mentioned on this forum the 20 competing vibrati. It is not a pleasant phenomenon, and certainly does not lend itself to good choral blend, let alone vocal tone.

Liberto, a Sicilian, was brought in to fix this, as well as to give the choir a sense of liturgical ministry rather than performance. He tried valiantly, but the men refused to co-operate. After 13 years he was replaced in a power coup. I am not aware that Palombella has had any greater success with them. Ultimately the only real solution is to fire the whole lot of them and start again. No one has had the courage to do that so far.

The other problem is that the boys are trained by somebody else, not by the director of the Sistine Chapel Choir. They sing with the continental tone so beloved of the late and great George Malcolm, but in an undisciplined way. And so they do not produce vocal tone in an appropriate way, and thus always sing flat. The only time the Sistine Chapel Choir director gets to work with them is when the boys join the men to sing with them (most of the time, the men sing TTBB without upper voices), and so he has no real opportunity to do anything about their deficiencies. This has been a source of ongoing frustration, and Liberto tried in vain to do something about this too. The choir has only had boys join them for liturgies during the past 120 years or so (before that, adult male castrati carried the upper parts for several centuries), hence the practice of them being trained separately.

It is certainly difficult to imagine the Sistine and Westminster choirs singing together. I wonder if James O'Donnell will have the courage to insist that the Sistine men straighten out their tone. Probably not, since he has not done that with the Westminster Abbey men since he has been there.

[gwyn]

Castration, that's the answer. If we start at mid-day tomorrow we can have all the men in the Sistine Chapel Choir done by about 3 or 4 pm, they can then sing Vespers to test whether or not we've been successful.

[Peter]

I ... could give an indepth critique of the trackside graffiti by Alexandra Palace.

Don't think I've ever seen any of Ms Palace's work. Is she better than Banksy?

[Peter Jones]

It is certainly difficult to imagine the Sistine and Westminster choirs singing together.

Tuning issues aside (lots !) there seems to me to be an insurmountable barrier in that the Sistine choir has so many ingrained affectations in regard to phrasing, rubato and dynamics to blend with any other choir whatsoever. I'm sorry to say that I find their ensemble (lack of) embarrassingly unpleasant to listen to.

[alan29]

There are some interesting value judgements being made here about what seem to me to be differing vocal/performance traditions. At this remove we know little of how Palestrina expected his music to be sung, though there is evidence that it was indeed sung in a highly soloistic and decorated manner at times. It could be that the Sistine men are preserving something rather illuminating.
Though like the others I find it a bit of a culture shock.

[mcb]

The first extract is definitely Westminster Abbey, not Westminster Cathedral.

Sorry SC, but it's definitely Westminster Cathedral! The treble line gives it away much more clearly than the men's voices. It appears to be the same recording as in this clip. (And have Westminster Abbey recorded this piece?)

[Peter Jones]

At this remove we know little of how Palestrina expected his music to be sung.....

Without delving into any musicological tome on renaissance practice, I would suggest 'by smaller ensembles'. Look at the size of the choir gallery in the Sistine Chapel itself, for example.

In my time in Rome, of all the major basilicas, the best choir was at St John Lateran - about 16 to 20 voices, from what I recall. A very pleasant sound...and.....the upper voices are taken by the female of the species. Do women's voices ever get a look in at St Peter's (apart from visiting choirs)?

[Southern Comfort]

The first extract is definitely Westminster Abbey, not Westminster Cathedral.

Sorry SC, but it's definitely Westminster Cathedral! The treble line gives it away much more clearly than the men's voices. It appears to be the same recording as in this clip. (And have Westminster Abbey recorded this piece?)

Yes, you're quite right, mcb. I somehow typed the two names the wrong way round in my haste to move on to the Sistine comment.

[Southern Comfort]

Do women's voices ever get a look in at St Peter's (apart from visiting choirs)?

Yes, there's a mixed-voice choir, which from memory is called the Cappella Juliana (but that might be false recall), which used to be directed by Mgr Pablo Colino, and which certainly used to sing in St Peter's regularly (but never at the same time as the Sistine Choir). I don't know if it still does, but things in Rome move so slowly that it's a reasonable supposition!

[Pablo Colino used to co-ordinate dates for all the visiting choirs, too, but once again I don't know if this is current information.]

[organist]

I as in the Isle of Man but all reports are of a good concert packed out. Interestingly for a concert reflecting the church's year not a single Alleluia and ending with Palestrina Stabat Mater. It seems the Sistine choir has improved a lot! I remember well doing a concert in Rome and one bass was late for rehearsal. this was excused as he was in the Sistine choir but his tone was indisciplined and just loud like so many of the Santa Cecilia choir and they did not know the music! It's the only occasion I have seen a conductor walk of the rostrum 5 minutes into the rehearsal and tell the chorus master to start again! Needless to say the Philharmonia Chorus knew their Gurrelieder parts very well!