Congregational singing of hymns

[Nick Baty]

3. Have some (or even most) weeks when there is no choir

And/or placing of choir. Our bunch can appear to be choir and merge into assembly as required.

[dunstan]

Some years ago I found this essay on the subject. While I don't agree with everything he says, and lack the skill for some of his more advanced suggestions, a number of the basic points are sound: confidence in the tempo, and confidence in when to come in matter a lot. And for a congregation to sing well unaccompanied, they first have to sing well accompanied IMHO. And, as Parr writes in his final paragraph, if they believe they did it themselves then you are truly blessed.

[Hare]

Some years ago I found this essay on the subject. While I don't agree with everything he says, and lack the skill for some of his more advanced suggestions, a number of the basic points are sound: confidence in the tempo, and confidence in when to come in matter a lot. And for a congregation to sing well unaccompanied, they first have to sing well accompanied IMHO. And, as Parr writes in his final paragraph, if they believe they did it themselves then you are truly blessed.

Interested to know what you don't agree with...?

[alan29]

I think good congregational singing is also an expression of a sense of community in the parish. People who are familiar and at ease with each other tend to be a lot less self-conscious when singing together. Maybe London parishes have a more transient population than us out in the sticks. And a settled community builds up a body of stuff they can sing with comfort.

[dunstan]

Interested to know what you don't agree with...?

I loathe and detest the use of a gathering note.

[Hare]

Interested to know what you don't agree with...?

I loathe and detest the use of a gathering note.

Ah - yes. Me too. I had skipped over that paragraph.

What works for me/my congregations is a VERY slight lengthening of the first note of the verse (especially verse 1) followed by a clear articulation to the next beat.

When I was a child the "anticipated treble note" was still much in vogue (late 50s early 60s) and I heard it as recently as about 6 years ago when a retired organist played by request for a service at the crematorium on my duty day.

[dunstan]

What works for me/my congregations is a VERY slight lengthening of the first note of the verse (especially verse 1) followed by a clear articulation to the next beat.

Fortunately, a significant proportion of my congregation can see me, so if I lean forward as I start a verse they can come in with confidence.

[alan29]

Surely the trick is to keep an absolutely constant pulse from the start of the playover, between the verses and to the end (allowing for a slight final rall if appropriate.) That way the assembly will always know when to come in. Gathering notes and lengthened first beats must be an invitation to a game of dominoes.

[Southern Comfort]

Surely the trick is to keep an absolutely constant pulse from the start of the playover, between the verses and to the end (allowing for a slight final rall if appropriate.) That way the assembly will always know when to come in. Gathering notes and lengthened first beats must be an invitation to a game of dominoes.

Agree 100% with this, especially with no rallentando whatsoever at the end of the playover. Unfortunately far too many organists do this — it's also a practice universally found among our Anglican sisters and brothers, whose fondness for a dramatic rallentando at the end of a playover may be musically justifiable if only the choir is singing but which does not work in a congregational context.

Once you have got a congregation used to playovers in strict time, it works like a dream. All you have to do is remember to shorten the last note of the playover to give the "breath".

[dunstan]

Once you have got a congregation used to playovers in strict time, it works like a dream. All you have to do is remember to shorten the last note of the playover to give the "breath".

Rather than a rallentando at the end of the playover, a lengthened chord works well, with a strict two beats between releasing the playover chord and starting the first verse. Alternatively, one can use the last line as a playover, and then treat the playover->first verse transition like any other transition between verses (e.g. starting the playover for cwm rhondda at "Bread of Heaven").

[londonchurchman]

I just wanted to say that while the detail of these posts is interesting, I am talking about a much more fundamental lack of particpation. What I see around me in the Catholic chuches I have visited is people not even bothering to pick up the hymnal, and when people do have the hymnal open not really engaging with it. It seems to convey the impression that singing is a chore that they would rather not bother with. I grew up in the Catholic Church in London in the 1970s, and as my Father was Anglican sometimes used to go with him to the Anglican Church - the congregational singing there was always much better, but I would say that the majority of us in the Catholic Church did sing back then. Now the contrast between Anglican and Cathlic churches is like day and night. I went with a friend of mine this weekend to the local Anglican church and everyone sang really beautifully - despite the diverse congregation. Somebody mentioned to me Thomas Day's book "Why Catholics can't Sing" and I managed to order a copy through amazon. Whist he was an American Catholic describing the experience in the States, he contends that English speaking Catholics tend now not to sing. I just thought I would throw this in for discussion.

[VML]

It really is down to the people who lead. PP and music leader/animateur can make a real difference. The assembly need regular encouragement and information. And even then it doesn't always go the way you hope.
My experience in the early 1970s was of very little singing, and a regular opinion that 'Catholics don't sing much.'
We've come a long way since then and are not these days what Chris Walker used to call, 'God's frozen people.'

[dunstan]

There are a number of dynamics at work:

• The regular attendance of catholics at mass is underpinned by the Sunday obligation, which does change the cross-section of congregations
• Catholics who like to sing will (where there is a choice of parishes) tend towards parishes which sing. And vice versa
• I don't agree that catholics sang better in the 1970s - my memories are of a silent parish with occasional mealy-mouthed attempts at singing

There are many parishes where catholics sing well, and there are many silent Anglican parishes.

[Nick Baty]

Being so young that I am frequently turned away from off-licences, my memories of levels of congregational are patchy. But one thing I remember vividly: there was only singing at the the 11.15am Mass (the one with the smallest attendance) and at Benediction. There was no singing at the other four parish Masses, including the 10am which was bursting at the seams. We've only had four decades to get used to singing: Some would say that's a couple of generations and more than long enough for things to change. But that all depends on where you are and who's responsible for the music.

[Hare]

Once you have got a congregation used to playovers in strict time, it works like a dream. All you have to do is remember to shorten the last note of the playover to give the "breath".

Rather than a rallentando at the end of the playover, a lengthened chord works well, with a strict two beats between releasing the playover chord and starting the first verse. Alternatively, one can use the last line as a playover, and then treat the playover->first verse transition like any other transition between verses (e.g. starting the playover for cwm rhondda at "Bread of Heaven").

Last line playovers only work if the tune is really well known.