The 'Twelfth of never'...

[Psalm Project]

Hi Folks...
Beat this...
This morning at mass I was playing the popular 'Eat this bread' hymn - I played through initially on Swell Oboe solo accompanied by a nice choir 8' flute and Vox Angelica...
Then cantor sang it twice... I finished off by playing it again with the great Hohl flute 8' and Twelfth 2 2/3' as solo (with same choir accompaniment)

After the final voluntary I noticed a man attempting to get my attention (My console is at congregation level)... He was walking over and back behind me... When I finally finished he very quickly intervened with a spiel about how out of tune the organ was... (I'm playing a three manual Phoenix - great organ) "You know the last verse of the 'Eat this bread'... you were just playing in two different keys? - can't you hear it? or, is the organ very badly out of tune'? You are playing in two different keys! (God bless his hearing and discernment!) He proceeded to tell me how his PSR??/ Yamaha keyboard had great organ sounds...

Hmmmm... it's at that point I glazed over... How do you explain the harmonic series... erm... I demo'd what I had done... He is still scratching his head!!!
"But you're still playing in two keys"... !!!!!

Where does one even begin... Right, a wheel is round because??? you guessed it - it rolls!

[Nick Baty]

Does it depend on the balance between your 8' and twelfth?

[musicus]

I think Nick is on the right lines. On our pipe organ at Pershore, the Nazard can sound "out of tune" (or even "in two keys at once") if I shut the box and focus on the upper harmonics.

I wonder how your man would react to a five-rank mixture!

(I love the thread title, BTW)

[PaulB]

I have learnt that I must never use the combination of 8' flute and twelfth when playing over the melody of the psalm response - our cantor (84, bless him) intoned the melody up a fifth, and two hundred people bravely followed him.

[Southern Comfort]

It is not unheard of for different manuals of electronic organs to have slightly different pitches. Anyone who has played the elderly Viscount in the Accueil side of St Bernadette's Church at Lourdes will be well aware of this! Normally it can be simply fixed if you have a screwdriver with you and know what you are doing. This happened to another (15-year-old) Viscount in my part of the world recently. Five minutes later, all was well....

However, this is a known failing of Allen organs, and is caused by the reaction of the circuitry to the temperature and humidity in the building. The manufacturers swear blind this cannot happen, but the weight of evidence is against them.

I have no idea if Phoenix suffers from the same problem.

[Psalm Project]

The Phoenix is in good health! None of the other 'ailments' mentioned apparent! No further discussion about brands! I'm still very happy nearly three year on.
The Hohl Flute is not shy on the Great and the Twelfth is a gentle lady! (it needs to be, as I also have a sesquialtera (12.17) also available on that manual.
It is a good balance in reality... but the particular gentleman obviously discerned two distinct pitches - and it obviously 'threw' him. (he struck me as being a tad pernikety and fussy)
I thought it curious nonetheless. It is one of those things that catches you unawares when what you are doing is completely 'normal' as an organist...
As for a five rank mixture... I've a four rank - *beep* good one at that... I demo'd that too! Sometimes trying too hard is counter-productive!
Maybe I should try a yamaha PSR??? for its fabulous 'organ' sounds...

[Psalm Project]

the 'beep' was D-amn

[Hare]

Obviously, organs vary, but a Twelfth, normally being of principal tone, is perhaps likely to sound disproportionate with an 8' flute. A Nazard will normally blend better. I play several pipe organs regularly where the Twelfth is really dominant, but works as a stand-in Cornet combination with an 8' diapason.

I'm sure I've heard a story about orchestral players at the RFH questioning an organist as to why he had been playing in two keys at once........

[contrabordun]

and there's always the old thing that chords are what organists play with one finger...dischords are what they play with two fingers...

[JW]

I have to say I never use 8' and 2 2/3 together, even when soloing out: on an extension organ they are all from the same rank. It could work if the Nazard is from a different, quieter rank than the 8' it's probably best to get an opinion from someone in the body of the church who has a decent ear. The nearest I go is 8 & 4' Flutes plus Nazard (and I only use that for the Bach Liebster Jesu chorale).

[organist]

I never use mutations in playing over nor I do I use a reed in chorus - it confuses everyone. It's fine to solo out on a clarinet, oboe or flute stop.

[gwyn]

I never use mutations in playing over nor I do I use a reed in chorus - it confuses everyone. It's fine to solo out on a clarinet, oboe or flute stop.

Agreed.

[dunstan]

The 8' flute is quite a clean tone, so short of harmonics. I'll very occasionally pair a Nazard with a 8' string for a mournful tone, but usually won't use it without a fifteenth as well.

[Hare]

I never use mutations in playing over nor I do I use a reed in chorus - it confuses everyone. It's fine to solo out on a clarinet, oboe or flute stop.

Agreed.

Not even swell chorus reeds?

[Hare]

The 8' flute is quite a clean tone, so short of harmonics. I'll very occasionally pair a Nazard with a 8' string for a mournful tone, but usually won't use it without a fifteenth as well.

salicional + Nazard can approximate to an Orchestral Oboe, depending on the voicing of course.