Hymnbooks

[Nickgale]

that is, ahem, the Ordinary of the Mass, as we used to say.

I'm a bit puzzled by this, too. I've seen it writ that it's not called that any longer, but Musicam Sacram uses the terminology and it's a very convenient shorthand... what's the 'correct' version now? A specific instance set to music becomes a Mass Setting, but the generic term for the texts themselves is...?

Still the Ordinary of the Mass as far as I am aware.... Its certainly the terminology that still appears to be common parlance.

[presbyter]

I'm sorry if I sound a bit less than highly enthusiastic about this project but on reading the thread, I'm getting a bit of an impression that what is being promoted here is the perpetuation of style of celebration that simply slots metrical hymns into the celebration of Mass - Beginning, Offertory, Communion (lets have two here because there's time) and End. Is enough consideration being given to that profound insight of the Constitution that music is integral to rite? Is enough consideration being given that musical forms should be designed to follow liturgical function? I don't see, for example, any mention so far of suitable music included for the Communion Procession Chant or for the Gospel Acclamation.

Here's some of the liturgical and musical forms at Mass

Dialogues

The Greeting and the Gospel and Preface dialogues. Blessing and Dismissal.

Prayers of the Presiding Priest

The Eucharistic Prayer and the other Presidential Prayers: Collect; Gifts; Concluding Prayer.

Acclamations of the whole assembly

The Gospel and Eucharistic Acclamations. The Embolism acclamation, “For the kingdom…”


Songs to listen to

Songs which may have a refrain for the assembly to sing. The Responsorial Psalm; the Communion Song or Psalm.

Litanies

The Penitential Rite; Prayer of the Faithful; the Lamb of God.

Songs which accompany an action

Entrance/Gathering songs; processional songs: Gospel and Communion.

Songs which are rites in themselves

Songs to be sung by all with nothing else taking place: the Gloria; the song after Communion. The Creed and the Lord’s Prayer.

Are all these forms being taken into consideration? Is it being made sufficiently clear that we should sing the Mass and not just sing at Mass?
I do not have a copy of the documents to hand but dont forget the principle therein that music is to be considered the more holy the more closely it is connected with the liturgical action. Let's have a good selection of ritual music in this book before any consideration of metrical hymns.

[gwyn]

Interesting points Presbyter.

Dialogues, Greetings, Gospel and Preface dialogues. Blessing and Dismissal. The Eucharistic Prayer and the other Presidential Prayers: Collect; Gifts; Concluding Prayer. Acclamations of the whole assembly - these are all readily available and easily obtained / (re)reproduced at a local level. They don't endure that well either, rather they need replacing/freshening occasionally. To include these might condemn the book to premature obsolescence, this is what's happened with Celebration Hymnal etc, it wan't the hymns that saw it off, rather the mass settings that it included became very quickly dated. Good hymnody has an enduring quality.

Just a thought.

[mcb]

Dialogues, Greetings, Gospel and Preface dialogues. Blessing and Dismissal. The Eucharistic Prayer and the other Presidential Prayers: Collect; Gifts; Concluding Prayer. Acclamations of the whole assembly - these are all readily available and easily obtained / (re)reproduced at a local level. They don't endure that well either, rather they need replacing/freshening occasionally.

Can't see the logic of this at all, Gwyn. If anything it's more important for ritual music to be of enduring quality. Maybe that explains the short shelf-life of some things that have come and gone - they haven't stood even the most elementary test of time. Other things will endure, but it's surely too early to tell, since we haven't had vernacular ritual music for long enough to be able to discern. So I'd say to anyone looking to create a new 'hymn book' that is set apart from others by virtue of its musical worth, that it's in ritual music above all that the book will succeed or fail.

To include these might condemn the book to premature obsolescence, this is what's happened with Celebration Hymnal etc, it wan't the hymns that saw it off, rather the mass settings that it included became very quickly dated.

Again, I'm not sure of this. Maybe you mean the terrible early experiments in paraphrased metricalised Mass settings. But we've moved on from there - I don't think you find any of them in CFE or Laudate, neither of which I think have been 'seen off'.

Good hymnody has an enduring quality.

Unfortunately so does bad hymnody! Look at the preface to the Westminster Hymnal, where the snooty editor laments the poor quality of popular Catholic hymns (this was in the 1930s, if memory serves). The hymns he objected to are still being sung today. I expect quite a few might end up having pride of place in Nick's worthy enterprise.

M.

[gwyn]

I must say that this thread has been a delight to follow.

Psalm 133(132) "Ecce quam bonum et quam jucundum habitare fratres in unum!"

1 How good and how pleasant it is,
when brethren dwell together in unity!

[Gabriel]

I find the suggestion that hymns wil be 'unaltered' odd. What values are being exoressed in this principle?

To make a blanket generalisation most hymnbook editors have altered words of hymns or omitted verses - usually to the improvement of the hymns.

There are plenty of good reasons for doing this: quality of text, avoiding archaism, poor theology, language and ideas that exclude and hinder participation.

That said hymns are only a small aspect of Presbyter's list drawn from the documents.

Gabriel

[Nickgale]

Thanks for your comments Presbyter. However, if we included all this we would end up with a 3 volume set! However, as I said, there will be a psalter, and the dialogue parts of the mass will be included in the Order of Mass itself - in English and Latin. Alleluias and other acclamations can be readily found elsewhere, so there will only be a small selection in the book.

[presbyter]

most hymnbook editors have altered words of hymns or omitted verses - usually to the improvement of the hymns

But even ICEL in its current incarnation can mangle a poetic tribrach for the sake of political correctness (or should I say theology?) - in my opinion.

Literal:

Glory to God in the highest and peace on earth to men of good will.

Proposed

Glory to God in the highest and peace on earth to people of good will.

[Nickgale]

Having had time to read Presbyter’s comments more carefully, I would say that what we are trying to do is the exact OPPOSITE of the simple slotting of

metrical hymns into the celebration of Mass - Beginning, Offertory, Communion (lets have two here because there's time) and End.

That is why the book is to be ordered liturgically, rather than alphabetically, and that is why there is an extensive liturgy planner containing themes for the day, a summary of the readings, the lectionary references, proper antiphon texts, hymn suggestions and motets/anthems/masses. The Sacraments section of the book breaks the Eucharist section down into component parts, including a healthy selection of proper offertory and communion hymns, which will serve to complement the hymns chosen for the specific day. Far too often we forget that the offertory hymn is an OFFERTORY hymn, not just a random singalong. This is something that was used effectively in the recent Catholic Hymnbook, edited by Paddy Russill.

With regard to the dialogue sections, the English/Latin order of the mass (which will delay the publication of the hymnbook, given that ICEL are re-translating parts of the Ordinary) will be given in missal tone, including the gospel dialogues, the Sursam corda, the embolism in the Our Father etc. There will be a small selection of Alleluias, Lenten gospel acclamations, memorial acclamations and dismissals. As for litanies, for reasons of space, we were just planning on including the Litany of the Saints in English and Latin. Do you think that a greater selection would be useful? What would you suggest?

With regard to psalms, we are going to provide an alternative to the responsorial psalm – the in directum singing of the psalm by the whole assembly to a simple Gregorian tone. This is done to great effect in many places, including here at St George’s Cathedral, and gives the people an opportunity for greater involvement. It is a move away from cantor-led singing and there is a historical and liturgical precedent for in the practice of the Early Church. It is also, as I am reliably informed, perfectly lawful to use in our post-conciliar liturgy.

As to the comments regarding the sung sections of the mass, as I have said there will be four complete settings of the ordinary in English for congregational use (ie Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus (+ acclamations and Amen) and Agnus Dei. There will also be a selection of chant settings with Latin texts and 2 credos. As Musicam Sacram and Sacrosanctam Concilium tell us

Pastors of souls should take care that besides the vernacular "the faithful may also be able to say or sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them."

With 8 to 10 complete settings I think that is probably enough to be going on with!

Let's have a good selection of ritual music in this book before any consideration of metrical hymns.

Well, at the moment it stands at about a third!! Not including the psalter…… But, at the end of the day, this is a hymnbook, not just a compendium of music for the ordinary of the Mass – there are plenty of those already. It is right that hymns should comprise at least half of the book. It should not be forgotten that the book will contain the Prayer of the Church – so there will also be office music and the texts for Benediction etc.

It occurs to me that Presbyter may like to see an advance contents list. If you would, Presbyter, please do email me and I will happily send you a contents list. Might I ask if, as the name implies, you are in fact a priest? I would be particularly interested in your views on the contents list in which case – after all, it is the clergy who tend to have the ultimate say in what resources are purchased for the parish! Thanks for your comments. You are quite right to insist on a good selection of ritual music – after all, metrical hymnody is not our ancient tradition. This hymnbook will focus on ritual music and, in particular, chant – as we are told in every document vaguely musical that is issued by the Holy See, chant is our traditional music and it is the music most suited to the Roman Rite. It is STILL neglected and this must change if we are to follow the guidelines laid down by the Church.

Gregorian chant, as proper to the Roman liturgy, should be given pride of place, other things being equal. Musicam Sacram

This is not to say that vernacular settings are to be discouraged – quite the contrary. However, we need to get the balance right.

[gwyn]

Amen to that. I'm sold. I can't wait to get my hands on it.

[presbyter]

Might I ask if, as the name implies, you are in fact a priest?

now let me see - what have I done this morning so far apart from post here? I've had an asbestos survey of a building done - done some accounts in order to see how on earth we will find over ten thousand pounds to have the asbestos removed - been of no help at all to a lady who thinks I should know where her grandmother was buried some forty years ago - paid some bills ........ hmmmm - I must be a priest then.

[sidvicius]

1) contrabordun made some valid suggestions about a hymnal available on CD earlier, so music could be printed off in several formats etc. May I add that many places are now using projectors to put the writing on the wall for all to see. No more scrambling for hymnbooks, rustling of hymnsheets or anything (although you do need screen space in your place of worship, and the aesthetics of this may be problematic).

2) It might also be possible in future for the publisher to maintain tighter control on copyright issues, by holding the hymnal as a central (digital) repository. Parishes could then assemble and order a hymnbook tailored to their requirements, songwriters get paid accordingly etc. Updates available online, as and when you need them.

(2) is currently an idea 'in draft'; I appreciate people may find fault with it, but you might like to consider the possibilities.

[contrabordun]

Great minds and all that - it occurred to me later that all of what I said would be much better implemented as a website - log on and then do exactly as per my previous post - with the benefits Sid mentions. So you could have it either as a hymnal or as an ad hoc missalette. I take the point about eco-friendly, but if you consider the printing and transportation of traditional hymnbooks, together with the fact that many places already use a missalette, it's a more finely balanced question.

Also gives far more choices of repertoire - might even be able to satisfy the requirements of every member of this forum...(!) - because there is no cost or overhead to holding minority interest repertoire. (Which would also enable composers to get to a wider audience - which can't be bad).

I was also going to mention projection - especially after Tsume's comment about heads down - because a congregation looking up at words on a wall will have their throats in a better singing position... I'd be interested in what people's practical experiences with this have been - sightlines, readability from the back (ie the faithful's prefered seating) etc

[mcb]

Good hymnody has an enduring quality.

Here's an excerpt from the musical editor's preface to the 1940 (revised) edition of the Westminster Hymnal. (The musical editor was William Bainbridge.)

A certain number of tunes whose merits lie chiefly in their associations have been retained in an Appendix. Those who have the welfare of the younger generation at heart will need no reminder that these people have not those associations, and furthermore, that many tunes of the latter part of the nineteenth century are lacking in that virility and rhythmic interest which are so essential to a hymn tune. (p. vii)

Here (in no particular order) are some of the effeminate and rhythmically insipid tunes that were shunted into the appendix:

• Old Hall Green (O come and mourn with me a while)
• Corpus Christi (Jesus, my Lord, my God, my all)
• Divine Mysteries (Sweet Sacrament divine)
• Cor Jesu (To Jesus' heart all burning)
• Stella (Hail, Queen of Heaven)
• Sawston (Faith of our fathers)
• Turris Davidica (I'll sing a hymn to Mary)
• Wiseman (Full in the panting heart of Rome)

It's not much of an exaggeration to say that the only hymns that are still in use from the entire collection are the ones that were consigned to the 'bad hymnody' appendix! There's a lesson there; it's either about the perils of musical snobbishness, or about the perils of overestimating popular taste. Take your pick.

M.

[contrabordun]

Literal:

Glory to God in the highest and peace on earth to men of good will.

Depends on your definition of 'literal' (ahem). Granted that if you look homo up in the dictionary, you'll see 'man'. But that says nothing about what 'man' means today, which is define by usage, not fiat: I'd argue it's only a literal translation if 'men' now, in 2004, means exactly what the anonymous author meant by 'hominibus' in whenever.

And whilst you can have an argument about how many people would deny that 'man' is an acceptable generic, you can't deny that many people do deny it, and would say that 'man' is only a literal translation of 'vir'. It isn't a question of whether, it's of how far this is a common usage.

The meaning of words in the language evolves. The classic is 'Prevent us O Lord, in all our doings' - Prae-venire "literally" means 'to come before' - i.e. to precede - and in Tynedale's day, 'Prevent' still had that meaning.

the Church herself must freely decide upon the system of language that will serve her doctrinal mission most effectively

The Church cannot have both the completely free choice that this implies and a commitment to a vernacular liturgy: the act of using the vernacular implies that you will, at least to some extent, use it in the way that the rest of the world uses it. Otherwise you're much better off in Latin - at least everybody knows that's a different language.