Hail Mary in Prayer of the Faithful

[contrabordun]

Well "perhaps" anything, but for obvious reasons it could only apply to people over the age of 50 and more likely 60. Seems to me much more likely that people like it because praying to Mary is something that Catholics do, and I doubt that the liturgical logic-or-otherwise ever really occurs to many people.

I'm not sure that in making his remarks about the old informing the new, the Pope had in mind the sense that mass was something that Father did up at the front while the congregation got on with reciting the rosary.

I do agree that the usual cis- and trans-alpinistes seem to have a tendency to find themeslves on the other side of the localism/centralism debate on this issue.

FWIW (ie zero) I like it: I think it's something distinctive about Catholicism on these shores and I don't think it does the slightest harm. Plus I was confirmed by GPD, so I have a tendency to loyalty in that direction.

[alan29]

I do agree that the usual cis- and trans-alpinistes seem to have a tendency to find themeslves on the other side of the localism/centralism debate on this issue.

FWIW (ie zero) I like it: I think it's something distinctive about Catholicism on these shores and I don't think it does the slightest harm. Plus I was confirmed by GPD, so I have a tendency to loyalty in that direction.

I totally agree with that.
I also think that the bit in bold applies to singing hymns - as against those who would have Sunday Mass celebrated with a succession of responsorial forms.

[NorthernTenor]

Well "perhaps" anything, but for obvious reasons it could only apply to people over the age of 50 and more likely 60. Seems to me much more likely that people like it because praying to Mary is something that Catholics do, and I doubt that the liturgical logic-or-otherwise ever really occurs to many people.

That's true, though it is not long since the majority will have had some memory of the old form, and the fact that "praying to Mary is something that Catholics do" is perhaps not unconnected historically with practice during the Mass in addition to devotions. To the extent that our local practice perpetuates that it, so is in tune with Catholic culture, whether people think of it that way or not. Of course, for me this is just an observation as that's not my background, so I can't speak to with with any personal conviction.

I'm not sure that in making his remarks about the old informing the new, the Pope had in mind the sense that mass was something that Father did up at the front while the congregation got on with reciting the rosary.

I wasn’t saying that – in fact, quite the opposite. I was suggesting that including collectively spoken or sung Marian prayers in celebrations of the new form is a good example of the reform-in-continuity for which he argues, in that it brings forward a practice from the old to the new in a manner that recognises the more collective approach of the new.

[Southern Comfort]

it is not long since the majority will have had some memory of the old form <snip> I was suggesting that including collectively spoken or sung Marian prayers in celebrations of the new form is a good example of the reform-in-continuity for which he argues, in that it brings forward a practice from the old to the new in a manner that recognises the more collective approach of the new.

The problem with this, as I see it, is that the old form did not actually know this practice. No one now alive and familiar with the post-conciliar revived Bidding Prayers will remember an old form, unless they are many hundreds of years old..... because (a) we did not have Bidding Prayers in the Mass for centuries, and (b) when we did (in the Middle Ages), the Hail Mary wasn't included in them. Instead, there was an intention that invoked the aid of Mary and the saints, but no separate prayer addressed to her or them. I am open to correction, but I do not think the Hail Mary was ever said publicly during Mass at all — until 1971. For the Hail Mary, you had to have recourse to the Angelus.

I therefore suggest that the argument that this innovation is in some way in continuity with the old does not stand up. For us in England & Wales, the practice at Mass only began 41 years ago. It may be very nice to have it, but there's no recent historical basis for it and, since Rome rather strongly wishes us to desist for well-founded reasons, why continue? I am aware of priests who have discontinued the practice in their parishes — even a cathedral parish — and no one seemed to notice or object.

[Peter Jones]

when we did (in the Middle Ages), the Hail Mary wasn't included in them. Instead, there was an intention that invoked the aid of Mary and the saints......

Apologies - slightly off topic but we will swing back - anyone know, off the top of a head, when/where the second section of the prayer arose? Something to do with the medieval Ars moriendi? (I used to know something about this but the brain won't retrieve it.)

[Southern Comfort]

Not an answer to Peter, but a note related to ars moriendi today.

In parishes (not many, but a significant number) where they have discontinued the Hail Mary, the final intention usually runs something like this:

"Let us ask Mary and all the saints to be with us as we remember those who have died, N. N. and N. N.

[decent pause]

Lord, in your mercy...."

Then either time for silent prayer, or the concluding collect.

[John Ainslie]

I am open to correction, but I do not think the Hail Mary was ever said publicly during Mass at all — until 1971. For the Hail Mary, you had to have recourse to the Angelus.

It was said three times at the end of Low Mass from 1930 until 1965 as part of the prayers for the conversion of Russia. But these were entitled 'Prayers to be said after Low Mass', and they did not appear in the Latin Missale Romanum. But woe betide any faithful soul who attempted to leave before they had been said and the priest had retreated thereafter to the sacristy.

[NorthernTenor]

it is not long since the majority will have had some memory of the old form <snip> I was suggesting that including collectively spoken or sung Marian prayers in celebrations of the new form is a good example of the reform-in-continuity for which he argues, in that it brings forward a practice from the old to the new in a manner that recognises the more collective approach of the new.

The problem with this, as I see it, is that the old form did not actually know this practice. No one now alive and familiar with the post-conciliar revived Bidding Prayers will remember an old form, unless they are many hundreds of years old..... because (a) we did not have Bidding Prayers in the Mass for centuries, and (b) when we did (in the Middle Ages), the Hail Mary wasn't included in them. Instead, there was an intention that invoked the aid of Mary and the saints, but no separate prayer addressed to her or them. I am open to correction, but I do not think the Hail Mary was ever said publicly during Mass at all — until 1971. For the Hail Mary, you had to have recourse to the Angelus.

I therefore suggest that the argument that this innovation is in some way in continuity with the old does not stand up. For us in England & Wales, the practice at Mass only began 41 years ago. It may be very nice to have it, but there's no recent historical basis for it and, since Rome rather strongly wishes us to desist for well-founded reasons, why continue? I am aware of priests who have discontinued the practice in their parishes — even a cathedral parish — and no one seemed to notice or object.

Pay attention at the back of the class, there - you've addressed a point I didn't make, SC. I referred to the private use of Marian prayers by the laity during celebration of the older form (about which I have been told by its friends and critics alike) , not to their incorporation in the text of the liturgy. This was apparently a common element of the celebration in practice. My point was that the conclusion of the new form's bidding prayers with an Ave Maria, said or sung, connects us with it in a way that is more in keeping with the spirit of the Pauline liturgy. Old and new practice both acknowledge the particular place that Mary has for East and West, over and above the other Saints.

[Southern Comfort]

I am open to correction, but I do not think the Hail Mary was ever said publicly during Mass at all — until 1971. For the Hail Mary, you had to have recourse to the Angelus.

It was said three times at the end of Low Mass from 1930 until 1965 as part of the prayers for the conversion of Russia. But these were entitled 'Prayers to be said after Low Mass', and they did not appear in the Latin Missale Romanum. But woe betide any faithful soul who attempted to leave before they had been said and the priest had retreated thereafter to the sacristy.

Yes, I was aware of that. But Mass had already ended by that point, as you say. I think the Angelus was the only "liturgical" form which actually included the prayer.

I remember the prayers for Russia very well, and recently encountered a parish dedicated to St Michael and all Angels using the "Blessed Michael Archangel, defend us in the day of battle...." prayer at the end of the Bidding Prayers, in addition to the Hail Mary, in place of the concluding collect.....

[Southern Comfort]

I referred to the private use of Marian prayers by the laity during celebration of the older form (about which I have been told by its friends and critics alike) , not to their incorporation in the text of the liturgy. This was apparently a common element of the celebration in practice.

Yes, it was. Sorry I didn't comprehend what you were saying, and sorry that you weren't around then to live through it. All kinds of other things happened during Mass, too. For example, people often went to confession during it. I don't think any of that is an argument for saying that we ought to be doing any of that today, even though JPII in his dotage suggested that we should.

The whole point of the Vatican II reforms was to remove the ancillary practices and private devotions (including the rosary and much else) that took place as incidentals during Mass, and to focus people on the actual liturgy taking place. That being so, the Hail Mary is nothing other than a diversion.

[Peter Jones]

I referred to the private use of Marian prayers by the laity during celebration of the older form.......

The word to emphasise there, NT, is private. John Ainslie has mentioned the public prayers after Low Mass.
That some people prayed the Rosary during Mass is certainly a fact. Yet by no means all. Even as a little child, I had a picture book Missal and my mother and father took me through
the action of the Mass, while themselves, following every word in parallel Latin/English pew editions of the Missal. (These I still possess.) Attending the Missa Cantata, we all sang the Ordinary of the Mass in dialogue with the choir ...... and the responses to the dialogues with the celebrant / Amen to the orations and Great Amen etc… Didn't a monk of Ampleforth have something to do with this by founding a Society in 1929..... the fruit of Papal documents of 1910 and 1928? Congregations were praying the Mass in song in the 1950s - not simply praying privately at Mass.

[gwyn]

Music to my ears P.J., that needed saying.

[Peter Jones]

I should also say that the "motet slot" could often have been Marian in content. A south Yorkshire mining village could produce rather sentimental renderings of the Arcadelt Ave Maria and more uplifting performances of the Soriano Regina Caeli in the Easter Season.

[alan29]

I have the same memories as PJ where there was much joining in and where the choir pretty much led the singing of the assembly in the ordinaries and responses. But for the life of me I can't remember what happened with the propers - I suspect they may have been chanted to psalm tones. We were most fortunate in having an organist who had an Oxford music degree and many years as an Anglican organist, so I guess our situation wasn't exactly typical. That was my first contact with Elgar (Ave Verum) something that has stayed with me all my life. Though there were those who did swing the beads at Mass - but back then there were Novenas etc when there was the opportunity for Marian devotions for those that way inclined. They were quite well attended too. But I fear that if they were re-introduced as a more appropriate setting for the Hail Mary attendance would be sparse - its hard enough getting them to Mass.

[Southern Comfort]

Attending the Missa Cantata, we all sang the Ordinary of the Mass in dialogue with the choir ...... and the responses to the dialogues with the celebrant / Amen to the orations and Great Amen etc… Didn't a monk of Ampleforth have something to do with this by founding a Society in 1929..... the fruit of Papal documents of 1910 and 1928? Congregations were praying the Mass in song in the 1950s - not simply praying privately at Mass.

Curiously, that never happened at High Mass in the parish where I grew up. My earliest memories are of the choir singing everything. It was only when the Dialogue Mass arrived in the wake of the September 1958 instruction that people in that particular parish were encouraged to join in with the responses, etc. I can still remember the thrill of being "allowed" to sing the Pater noster for the first time, not to mention Credo III (right the way through, not the alternatim style beloved of Westminster Cathedral and other places). No teaching was necessary — everyone knew them, having heard them every week for years.

It's good to hear that Dom Bernard's zeal had percolated through to your parish. When I first began to learn about the SSG, I was surprised at how much I had missed out on in my Jesuit parish. We did, however, learn the Missa de Angelis in primary school, but never sang it in the parish (our school served several different parishes).