historical query re Prayer of the Faithful

[docmattc]

The Diocese of A&B website has the following in its guidelines for the Prayer of the Faithful:

The Roman Rite does not, in fact, envisage the inclusion of devotional prayers in the Prayer of the Faithful. Following a mediaeval
practice in England, the ‘Hail Mary’ has been customarily said after the final intercession. Properly understood, a set of prayers directed to the Father, through the Son and in the power of the Holy Spirit, contains no obvious place for prayers to the Saints. This is why, some years ago, the Holy See wrote to the Bishops of England and Wales advising that such devotional prayer should not have a place in the Prayer of the Faithful. The Holy See asked that the, by then, widespread practice be gradually and gently discouraged.


Given that the Prayer of the Faithful, I understand was not a part of the pre-concilliar rite, can anyone shed light on the "mediaeval
practice"? When, between Justin Martyr and VC2, did the Prayer of the Faithful disappear, or was it in the Sarum use?

[John Ainslie]

Historically, the Prayers of the Faithful as we now know them (minus the Hail Mary) were originally more akin to the Solemn Intercessions of Good Friday. But in the Middle Ages they blossomed into a whole variety of local usages, in some of which the people participated by reciting, aloud or privately, the Pater noster and/or Ave Maria. I have no information on what went on in this country. Most of them disappeared with the introduction of the Pius V Missal, but the prières du prône (lit. the collection prayers) survived in France right up to V2, and contained a Pater and Ave recited by the whole congregation (sic Jungmann).

It was Archbishop George Patrick Dwyer of Birmingham who campaigned in Rome at the time of V2 for the inclusion of the 'Hail Mary' in the Prayers of the Faithful for use in England on the grounds that this country was 'Our Lady's Dowry'. His proposal was generally ridiculed by the Congregation for Divine Worship, but the Archbishop was a doughty fighter and got his way, with or without the blessing of the Congregation.

Notice, however, that there is no mention of the 'Hail Mary' in the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, even the version specially approved for England & Wales, nor does it appear in the new Roman Missal. In the Bishops' Conference's Celebrating the Mass we read 'The Roman Rite does not envisage the inclusion of devotional prayers in the Prayer of the Faithful' (no 173). And I think I am right in saying that the 'Hail Mary' was noticeably absent in the Masses celebrated by the Pope when he was in this country a year ago.

[Nick Baty]

It was Archbishop George Patrick Dwyer of Birmingham who campaigned in Rome at the time of V2 for the inclusion of the 'Hail Mary' in the Prayers of the Faithful for use in England... His proposal was generally ridiculed by the Congregation for Divine Worship, but the Archbishop was a doughty fighter and got his way, with or without the blessing of the Congregation.

John, am I right in thinking permission was given on a trial basis?
Can't remember where I read that.

[Southern Comfort]

John Ainslie is very charitable in his recollection of +George Patrick Dwyer.

The latter did not campaign in Rome, but simply took a unilateral decision, as chair of the then National Liturgical Commission, to include the Hail Mary at the end of the Bidding Prayers. (Date of 'promulgation' was 1971 — in other words, a full year after the Order of Mass in the vernacular was already in use in this country. There was no Hail Mary in the English Order of Mass when it first began.) His rationale was that if the Hail Mary was not included in the Mass, people would forget how to say it. He conveniently overlooked the fact that people had not forgotten how to say the (vernacular) Our Father, despite the fact that this had never been included in the (Latin) Mass during the previous 1500 years.....

And Nick is mistaken in thinking that Rome gave permission on a trial basis. Rome never gave permission at all. Indeed, Rome wrote to the Episcopal Conference of England and Wales not once (as docmattc states) but on two separate occasions, demanding (not advising) that the practice be discontinued, on the basis that the Bidding Prayers are addressed to the Father and that it is therefore inappropriate to include a prayer addressed to Our Lady in the midst of this. The E&W Episcopal Conference blithely took no notice on either occasion.....

[Nick Baty]

And Nick is mistaken in thinking that Rome gave permission on a trial basis. Rome never gave permission at all.

Thanks, SC. So what is now common practice, simply slipped in below the wire!

[alan29]

So, presumably those who wish to be most faithful to Rome and the new texts are no longer saying it? It would seem a little bizarre if we are being held to account over inaudible capitalisation on the one hand, while on the other hand parishes are continuing to use the Hail Mary.

[Nick Baty]

we are being held to account over inaudible capitalisation

You're obviously allowing your assembly to sing it wrongly!

[alan29]

we are being held to account over inaudible capitalisation

You're obviously allowing your assembly to sing it wrongly!

They just can't seem to get the hang of the capitals at all. Maybe I shouldn't have told them to raise their eyebrows when singing them - not everyone has Roger Moore's skills, after all.

[musicus]

The Eyebrow Strategy is fine for televised Masses, but for radio the recommendation is to use a small Semi-Chorus whose role is to cough at each occurrence of a 'special' Capital Letter (i.e. not your ordinary, everyday start-of-a-sentence Capital Letter - unless, of course, it is also a 'special' one, in which case that takes precedence). It is, needless to say, important that this Semi-Chorus is situated so as to be both part of the Assembly and well placed to discharge its ministerial function (except when a member does in fact have a real, medical, cough, in which case they should be seated as far from the Assembly as possible).

Apparently, the concomitant requirement that such Capital Letters be printed in green has thrown publishers into disarray, with many being obliged to pulp their freshly minted new Missals, (though one Newmarket publisher with an admirable eye for the bottom-line and a commendable commitment to recycling is apparently seeking Catholic volunteers, willing to work long hours for no pay and still less appreciation, to go through the books, inking in the corrections with a green Biro). More traditional bloggers are already saying "Say the black, do the red, and cough the green".

If we are to implement this new directive in its most strict and pure form, then membership of this Semi-Chorus should ideally be restricted to Young Boys. The acquisition of a well-developed Tussive Capability is a necessary prerequisite for anyone considering a vocation to the Priesthood, given that a smoker's cough is almost a sine qua non for those making that life-choice. (Girls, it must be admitted, lack the necessary vocal gravitas to make a sufficient impression in the coughing department, not least given the facts that their voices do not break and that, at least for the present, we ought not to be encouraging them to aspire to the Priesthood.)

But I fear we have stayed Off-Topic.

[Chris]

John Ainslie is very charitable in his recollection of +George Patrick Dwyer.

The latter did not campaign in Rome, but simply took a unilateral decision, as chair of the then National Liturgical Commission, to include the Hail Mary at the end of the Bidding Prayers. (Date of 'promulgation' was 1971 — in other words, a full year after the Order of Mass in the vernacular was already in use in this country. There was no Hail Mary in the English Order of Mass when it first began.) His rationale was that if the Hail Mary was not included in the Mass, people would forget how to say it. He conveniently overlooked the fact that people had not forgotten how to say the (vernacular) Our Father, despite the fact that this had never been included in the (Latin) Mass during the previous 1500 years.....

And Nick is mistaken in thinking that Rome gave permission on a trial basis. Rome never gave permission at all. Indeed, Rome wrote to the Episcopal Conference of England and Wales not once (as docmattc states) but on two separate occasions, demanding (not advising) that the practice be discontinued, on the basis that the Bidding Prayers are addressed to the Father and that it is therefore inappropriate to include a prayer addressed to Our Lady in the midst of this. The E&W Episcopal Conference blithely took no notice on either occasion.....

According to the evidence in the files of the National Liturgical Commission, it was actually Bishop Wheeler rather than Archbishop Dwyer who came up with the idea. +Wheeler, (when still auxiliary of Middlesbrough) brought along an old English prayerbook, in which the bidding prayers referred to the Hail Mary to an early meeting of the National Liturgical Commission. +Dwyer saw the advantage of having the Hail Mary in for the reasons SC cites above.

When +Wheeler took over as President of the Episcopal Commission on the Liturgy, he sent a booklet entitled 'The Bidding Prayer' to the Cong DW in Rome in an attempt to introduce further variations on the invocation to Mary at the end of the bidding prayers (such as the Memorare.) In his response, Abp Bugnini noted that while the local Episcopal Conference had the right to determine the content of the bidding prayers, it did not, in his opinion, have the right to alter the structure. Instead, he suggest that the final prayer should include a specific reference to the intercession of Our Lady. +Bugnini did however acknowledge that there existed a 'well established custom' and the change he recommended would have to be introduced with great care.

Evidently, Bishop Wheeler felt that the custom was now well enough established to accept the changes suggested by +Bugnini.

[Peter Jones]

More traditional bloggers are already saying "Say the black, do the red, and cough the green".

Sine qua non here.I shall dutifully say the nigrics, do the rubrics and in divers voluntary and involuntary motions, hack the pallidics, viridics and prasinics - depending on the shade. (Of course, including during the Prayer of the Faithful - con or senza Ave Maria - just to keep us on topic.)

[JW]

John Ainslie is very charitable in his recollection of +George Patrick Dwyer.

The latter did not campaign in Rome, but simply took a unilateral decision, as chair of the then National Liturgical Commission, to include the Hail Mary at the end of the Bidding Prayers. (Date of 'promulgation' was 1971 — in other words, a full year after the Order of Mass in the vernacular was already in use in this country. There was no Hail Mary in the English Order of Mass when it first began.) His rationale was that if the Hail Mary was not included in the Mass, people would forget how to say it. He conveniently overlooked the fact that people had not forgotten how to say the (vernacular) Our Father, despite the fact that this had never been included in the (Latin) Mass during the previous 1500 years.....

And Nick is mistaken in thinking that Rome gave permission on a trial basis. Rome never gave permission at all. Indeed, Rome wrote to the Episcopal Conference of England and Wales not once (as docmattc states) but on two separate occasions, demanding (not advising) that the practice be discontinued, on the basis that the Bidding Prayers are addressed to the Father and that it is therefore inappropriate to include a prayer addressed to Our Lady in the midst of this. The E&W Episcopal Conference blithely took no notice on either occasion.....

Catholic participation at private and public liturgies has changed dramatically over the past 60 years. Most Catholics only attend Sunday Mass and many do not pray at home. So Archbishop Dwyer may well have been correct to worry that people would forget the Hail Mary.

As far the demand to discontinue on the basis that Bidding Prayers are addressed to the father, this might seem logical until one recalls that the Rosary is considered to be a prayer to Our Lady, yet includes the Our Father and Glory Be and usually ends with a prayer to the Father - while meditating on all sorts of mysteries. I do wonder if devotion to Our Lady in 'Her Dowry' may diminish even more without the Hail Mary in Bidding Prayers

[NorthernTenor]

I see no problem in asking Our Lady to add her support to the bidding prayers we have just addressed to the Father, particularly in a new element of the liturgy that introduces an element of extra-textual prayer. I once would have demurred, as a loyal protestant who wished to have nothing whatsoever to do with Popish idolatry, but when I came to a Catholic understand of these things I entered into them with some enthusiasm. Perhaps Archbishop Bugnini's suggestion was a symptom of his preference for bringing together catholic and protestant liturgical forms; not that I think there's anything wrong in that in all times and places, so long as it doesn't take a minimalist approach that drops distinctively Catholic practices, especially where they are an authentic and orthodox expression of the faithful's devotion.

[Southern Comfort]

What Bugnini was advocating was a formula such as "Let us ask the Virgin Mary and all the Saints to join their prayers to ours as we remember those who are sick / have died / etc...", rather than a separate prayer addressed to Our Lady. This seems to me to be a good solution to a liturgical / pastoral / theological dilemma.

[NorthernTenor]

What Bugnini was advocating was a formula such as "Let us ask the Virgin Mary and all the Saints to join their prayers to ours as we remember those who are sick / have died / etc...", rather than a separate prayer addressed to Our Lady. This seems to me to be a good solution to a liturgical / pastoral / theological dilemma.

Sounds like a good idea, SC, especially if followed by "Hail Mary, ...". Come to think of it, nothing's stopping the leader of the bidding prayers from using such a formula. I suspect we have a none-issue here.