Please remove.
Should have engaged brain first.
Hymnbooks
Moderators: Dom Perignon, Casimir
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Merseysider
- Posts: 430
- Joined: Fri May 07, 2004 11:21 pm
Re: Hymnbooks
Last edited by Merseysider on Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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gwyn
- Posts: 1148
- Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 3:42 pm
- Parish / Diocese: Archdiocese of Cardiff
- Location: Abertillery, South Wales UK
I see where you're coming from Merseysider, but the presence of saints day hymns isn't going to be a problem whereas the absence of them can be.
The absence of them, as you say, limits hymn books to being a Sunday mass resource, the inclusion of office hymns/saints day hymns opens the book up to being a more general parish resource: morning and evening prayer and week-day masses (or is that weak, day masses) &c..
As you say, Laudate (and CHFE) have many good points in their favour, I'm banging on about their down-points in order that such things are not replicated in the promised (or any) new hymnal.
Had our parish not invested in CHFE when we did we'd certainly have got Laudate, sadly I didn't know of Laudate when we bought CHFE - poor research on my part, mea maxima culpa!
All good fun, eh?
The absence of them, as you say, limits hymn books to being a Sunday mass resource, the inclusion of office hymns/saints day hymns opens the book up to being a more general parish resource: morning and evening prayer and week-day masses (or is that weak, day masses) &c..
As you say, Laudate (and CHFE) have many good points in their favour, I'm banging on about their down-points in order that such things are not replicated in the promised (or any) new hymnal.
Had our parish not invested in CHFE when we did we'd certainly have got Laudate, sadly I didn't know of Laudate when we bought CHFE - poor research on my part, mea maxima culpa!
All good fun, eh?
Our parish bought CH in 1992, as we moved into a brand new building with a big debt, so we had a set of books where the melody edition was quite quickly out of print because CFE came out soon after (and was bought by the parish school.) We coped with the music books we had, (those in three small separate books: far from ideal in layout, but light on the music stands.)
Now, with some new blood in the choir and musicians, more books are necessary, but we cannot justify the expense of changing the whole lot,so I, (the parish) have bought some melody copies of CFE, but they are blockbustingly heavy for most music stands. And even the M&L planning for Advent gives the 2 alternative first lines of 'Wake, awake.' I know they are in this instance two legit translations, and the editor has the final say over which version to use, but what happens when someone suggests e.g. 'inclusive '
language, or decides we should no longer use thee and thou?
I think possibly the least reasonable parish hymnal of recent years was the version of HON with a text for each Sunday written by. I believe, one author, and set to well known tunes. Has anyone used these settings on a regular basis?
A hymnal with fresh Mass music will be very useful.
Where are the Mass parts coming from? Are there some new as yet unpublished ones? Have you finalised the selection or is it ongoing? Will the Mass texts all be strictly straight language, or are you using paraphrases?
I wish you a smooth progress in this venture, Nick, and agree with previous posters in appreciation of the opportunity to raise possible issues.
V.
Now, with some new blood in the choir and musicians, more books are necessary, but we cannot justify the expense of changing the whole lot,so I, (the parish) have bought some melody copies of CFE, but they are blockbustingly heavy for most music stands. And even the M&L planning for Advent gives the 2 alternative first lines of 'Wake, awake.' I know they are in this instance two legit translations, and the editor has the final say over which version to use, but what happens when someone suggests e.g. 'inclusive '
language, or decides we should no longer use thee and thou?
I think possibly the least reasonable parish hymnal of recent years was the version of HON with a text for each Sunday written by. I believe, one author, and set to well known tunes. Has anyone used these settings on a regular basis?
A hymnal with fresh Mass music will be very useful.
Where are the Mass parts coming from? Are there some new as yet unpublished ones? Have you finalised the selection or is it ongoing? Will the Mass texts all be strictly straight language, or are you using paraphrases?
I wish you a smooth progress in this venture, Nick, and agree with previous posters in appreciation of the opportunity to raise possible issues.
V.
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contrabordun
- Posts: 514
- Joined: Sun May 23, 2004 4:20 pm
Just a thought......I'm interested in what might be possible with this CD-ROM.
A lot of places now print a mass sheet each week, with hymn numbers, responsorial setting etc etc.
If I were in the market for a hymnal, I'm not sure I'd want to buy congregational copies at all. What I might want to buy would be the right to print for one-time use, each Sunday, the words and music of whichever Mass Setting and hymns (with my choice of melody), plus entrance and communion antiphons, gospel acclamation and responsorial psalm. Possibly also the readings, with the intention of printing the whole lot on a sheet of A3 folded once. In regular and large print sizes.
I might want some very easy to use software included which knew the cycle of readings etc so that it would prepopulate the words, and would take care of the formatting, just requiring me to choose the settings from a list. Eg hymns, default melody, plus alternatives (from a list of those with the correct meter (metre?)). Hymn texts to be available in 'original', 'gently updated' and 'fully inclusive language' versions.
I might want the option of printing a 'choir' version (harmony) and a 'congregational' version. For use with music groups, I might want to be able to to specify 'guitar' or 'woodwind' versions etc.
I would expect to be able to add hymns and songs from external sources, and to be able to subscribe to an update service for new music.
I would expect the option of paying either a lump sum for all of the above, or on a usage basis - so that those authors and composers whose copyright works I used a lot would receive royalties in proportion. Because many of the works would be out of copyright, I would expect this option to be extremely cheap in terms of startup - price of a CD, price of copying a database of hymns and tunes to it, price of some simple dedicated DTP software.
Think that about covers it - anybody else fancy consigning the printed hymnbook to history?
Er, sorry Nick if this isn't too much help for your current project .
A lot of places now print a mass sheet each week, with hymn numbers, responsorial setting etc etc.
If I were in the market for a hymnal, I'm not sure I'd want to buy congregational copies at all. What I might want to buy would be the right to print for one-time use, each Sunday, the words and music of whichever Mass Setting and hymns (with my choice of melody), plus entrance and communion antiphons, gospel acclamation and responsorial psalm. Possibly also the readings, with the intention of printing the whole lot on a sheet of A3 folded once. In regular and large print sizes.
I might want some very easy to use software included which knew the cycle of readings etc so that it would prepopulate the words, and would take care of the formatting, just requiring me to choose the settings from a list. Eg hymns, default melody, plus alternatives (from a list of those with the correct meter (metre?)). Hymn texts to be available in 'original', 'gently updated' and 'fully inclusive language' versions.
I might want the option of printing a 'choir' version (harmony) and a 'congregational' version. For use with music groups, I might want to be able to to specify 'guitar' or 'woodwind' versions etc.
I would expect to be able to add hymns and songs from external sources, and to be able to subscribe to an update service for new music.
I would expect the option of paying either a lump sum for all of the above, or on a usage basis - so that those authors and composers whose copyright works I used a lot would receive royalties in proportion. Because many of the works would be out of copyright, I would expect this option to be extremely cheap in terms of startup - price of a CD, price of copying a database of hymns and tunes to it, price of some simple dedicated DTP software.
Think that about covers it - anybody else fancy consigning the printed hymnbook to history?
Er, sorry Nick if this isn't too much help for your current project .
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Tsume Tsuyu
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 9:40 am
- Location: UK
contrabordun wrote:I'm interested in what might be possible with this CD-ROM. ..........anybody else fancy consigning the printed hymnbook to history?
Now there's a thought! And a project for someone. Speaking as the person who types the words/music sheet for the assembly each week in our parish, contrabordun's idea appeals to me no end.
Going off at a slight tangent, with my 'readers' hat on, I might opt not to have the text of the readings printed anywhere. There is nothing so frustrating as proclaiming to pew upon pew of heads buried in missals/mass books/service sheets. As a reader, I want to engage with the assembly. I want them to look at me and listen to what I'm saying. I do appreciate that this falls down when faced with a reader who mumbles into his/her boots but, maybe, if it was more important for the reader to proclaim well, this would encourage better formation of readers.
Going back to the original idea, it would certainly kill a lot of birds with one stone.
TT
Liturgy Disk
A number of years ago Chapman's published the 'Liturgy Disk' CD-Rom which had Sunday texts (Reading references & Captions) and complete CFE text.
Anybody use it?
Gabriel
Anybody use it?
Gabriel
contrabordun wrote:Just a thought......I'm interested in what might be possible with this CD-ROM.
We used to use something called The Liturgy Disk, a CD-ROM published by Cassell (if memory serves) that allowed the creation of service booklets along something like the lines you mention, CB. It had the complete Sunday Lectionary included, and the words for all the hymns in CFE, plus the music artwork for all the service music, that is, ahem, the Ordinary of the Mass, as we used to say.
In principle you selected a particular Sunday or feast day from the calendar (I seem to remember it also did baptisms, funerals and for some reason ordinations), ticked a few boxes to specify the level of detail you wanted, etc, and it would automatically generate a missalette complete with your chosen hymns for the day.
A great idea, though in practice it was hardly useful at all, because it was so rigid as to what you could and couldn't include and so crude as to the DTP-like tools it provided for actually controlling how it all looked. This was all some time ago (it came out around 1997, I think) and I've no idea whether a more powerful and less frustrating updated version exists.
The one thing I've kept from it is the on-line CFE, though the hymns are all encoded using some hideous mark-up language, so it's a lot of work to get a hymn into useable form. But it's occasionally been useful.
If memory serves, you could also get it to generate automatically your quarterly return to Calamus, showing which copyright-licensed items you've been using. Again an ingenious idea, though you'd have to use the system week in week out, er, religiously, in order for it to serve as an accurate record. But it gave a glimpse of what an all-singing all-dancing system of the kind CB outlines could be like.
M.
Just a few random suggestions of things to include ... I'm aware that you will have an editorial panel, but that won't stop be chipping in my tuppenceworth
DO include some of the Wesley favourites - such as "Jesu lover of my soul"
DO in include some of the, ehem, "traditional" Catholic hymns, such as "Faith of our Father", "Who is she that stands triumphant"
DO include the Contakion (in English). It lives on that cusp between choral and congregational, but is a beautiful prayer
DO stick with the traditional translations ... if only so that we can continue to wonder how to scan "when wicked men blaspheme thee"
Are you going to put melody lines in the congregational books, or words only?
DO include some of the Wesley favourites - such as "Jesu lover of my soul"
DO in include some of the, ehem, "traditional" Catholic hymns, such as "Faith of our Father", "Who is she that stands triumphant"
DO include the Contakion (in English). It lives on that cusp between choral and congregational, but is a beautiful prayer
DO stick with the traditional translations ... if only so that we can continue to wonder how to scan "when wicked men blaspheme thee"
Are you going to put melody lines in the congregational books, or words only?
Thanks for all your replies!
Dear all
I have been so overwhelmed by the number of responses I have received regarding this venture that I have given up trying to deal with each one as they arrive!! Thanks for your helpful remarks – I have learnt something from each and every response. Here is a series of answers to some of your questions which I hope will make clear our intentions for the book. I am sorry it is so lengthy, but I am trying to answer all of your questions in one go!! I have italicised the gist of the questions before attempting to answer them.
1) Alphabetical ordering. The new book will be organised liturgically. Whilst I appreciate helpful comments pointing out that the lectionary is, of course, on a 3-year cycle and that some feasts have different readings each year, the overriding themes of the feast are generally the same (the example given was Christ the King) and the liturgy planer CDRom will deal with specific differences in the 3-year cycle.
2) Words. The hymnbook will not ‘dilute’ words of hymns. Either the hymns deserve to be in the book because of their theological and musical integrity, or they don’t. Therefore, the wording of hymns will be left unaltered.
3) Harmonisations. The harmonisations are intended for a reasonably competent organist or pianist. There will not be guitar chords etc.
4) Mass settings. The 4 English mass settings will be through-composed congregational pieces with optional harmony. These will be the only English settings, but they will be complete and well-composed, and a CD recording of all four will be released with the full music edition to assist choirs/cantors to learn the music. The translations will be ICEL – no paraphrases whatsoever.
5) Indexes. There will be an alphabetical index only in the congregation edition. The full-music will have a full set of indexes, including 1st line AND melodies!
6) Editions. 2 editions only – melody (people) and full music (organ/cantor/choir etc)
7) Binding – hardback only.
Typography – one hymn to a page!
9) Psalter. This will be a chant (plainsong) psalter for the 3-year cycle. The psalms will be from an authorised translation suitable for singing and there will be no responses. There are enough responsorial psalm resources around without the need for another one, therefore we are going to provide an alternative (but authorised) way of singing the psalm at mass.
10) Copyright and dates. Composer and author/translator dates (where known) will be included.
11) Guitar symbols etc. Re Benevenio’s comments about 60% of Catholic music being guitar-led, I acknowledge this – CFE, HoN, Laudate etc all cater for this already. In my cathedral, I want a book that caters for the organist and choir for the solemn mass, and for the cantors at the other masses. I have yet to see a hymnbook that meets these requests and that has good harmonisations and un-tampered-with words. If the market is limited then we acknowledge that – but there is a need for a real alternative to the current resources. That is the market we aim for and the hymnbook we produce will be suitable for organists, cantors and choral singers, as well as ordinary congregations with little or no musical experience – but organ-led.
12) Hymns to the saints. I appreciate the comments regarding the principle mass of Sunday taking precedence over saints’ days – however, the book will include the Divine Office so saints’ day hymns will be essential. In addition, they will come in handy for patronal festivals and regional/local saints and paraliturgical devotions. I think that, for the sake of 30 odd hymns (excluding Marian hymns) it is well worth having a selection from the Proper of Saints.
13) CDRom – thanks for the comments and requests regarding the content of this. However, I suspect that the copyright implications for putting all the hymns on the disc are enormous – and, of course, if we want to sell melody editions for congregations, putting the hymns on paper every week defeats the object – and isn’t very eco-friendly!! It may be of interest to those of you in search of such a resource that, in addition to the CDRom which Cassell produced (which, I understand, is sadly no longer available), there is a piece of software designed, principally, for use in the CofE (Visual Liturgy) but you need to check the words carefully – some have been altered and, thou it does include the likes of Soul of my Saviour and Sweet Sacrament Divine, etc, many Catholic hymns are understandably missing.
14) Readings I agree with Tsume Tsuyu – we won’t be including the readings – nothing worse than a church full of heads buried in books or mass leaflets! The whole point of the Liturgy of the Word is surely that is should be proclaimed and received, not followed on paper!!
15) Trad hymns – Thanks to Dunstan for your comments. Yes, Wesley’s hymns will feature – they are amongst the finest hymns ever written. But so too are many of Fr Faber’s, which will also be included. As for ‘Who is she that stands triumphant’ – but of course!! No hymnbook is complete without the stirring words and spectacular R.R. Terry tune. Will not tamper with translations and I will look into the Kontakion idea. You have been looking at NEH!!! There will also be a couple of brand new settings (in simple 4-part harmony) of useful texts like the Tantum ergo, O salutaris and Ave verum etc. Would these be helpful?
16) Lastly, thanks to all who have contributed. Please keep the comments coming in and I will try to take on-board as many suggestions as I can, whilst keeping with the spirit of the book. I will keep you all posted of the progress and I hope you will all be rushing out to buy at least a shelf copy – or, even better, a set for your parishes/cathedrals! All the best, and keep the comments coming in!! Nick.
I have been so overwhelmed by the number of responses I have received regarding this venture that I have given up trying to deal with each one as they arrive!! Thanks for your helpful remarks – I have learnt something from each and every response. Here is a series of answers to some of your questions which I hope will make clear our intentions for the book. I am sorry it is so lengthy, but I am trying to answer all of your questions in one go!! I have italicised the gist of the questions before attempting to answer them.
1) Alphabetical ordering. The new book will be organised liturgically. Whilst I appreciate helpful comments pointing out that the lectionary is, of course, on a 3-year cycle and that some feasts have different readings each year, the overriding themes of the feast are generally the same (the example given was Christ the King) and the liturgy planer CDRom will deal with specific differences in the 3-year cycle.
2) Words. The hymnbook will not ‘dilute’ words of hymns. Either the hymns deserve to be in the book because of their theological and musical integrity, or they don’t. Therefore, the wording of hymns will be left unaltered.
3) Harmonisations. The harmonisations are intended for a reasonably competent organist or pianist. There will not be guitar chords etc.
4) Mass settings. The 4 English mass settings will be through-composed congregational pieces with optional harmony. These will be the only English settings, but they will be complete and well-composed, and a CD recording of all four will be released with the full music edition to assist choirs/cantors to learn the music. The translations will be ICEL – no paraphrases whatsoever.
5) Indexes. There will be an alphabetical index only in the congregation edition. The full-music will have a full set of indexes, including 1st line AND melodies!
6) Editions. 2 editions only – melody (people) and full music (organ/cantor/choir etc)
7) Binding – hardback only.
Typography – one hymn to a page!
9) Psalter. This will be a chant (plainsong) psalter for the 3-year cycle. The psalms will be from an authorised translation suitable for singing and there will be no responses. There are enough responsorial psalm resources around without the need for another one, therefore we are going to provide an alternative (but authorised) way of singing the psalm at mass.
10) Copyright and dates. Composer and author/translator dates (where known) will be included.
11) Guitar symbols etc. Re Benevenio’s comments about 60% of Catholic music being guitar-led, I acknowledge this – CFE, HoN, Laudate etc all cater for this already. In my cathedral, I want a book that caters for the organist and choir for the solemn mass, and for the cantors at the other masses. I have yet to see a hymnbook that meets these requests and that has good harmonisations and un-tampered-with words. If the market is limited then we acknowledge that – but there is a need for a real alternative to the current resources. That is the market we aim for and the hymnbook we produce will be suitable for organists, cantors and choral singers, as well as ordinary congregations with little or no musical experience – but organ-led.
12) Hymns to the saints. I appreciate the comments regarding the principle mass of Sunday taking precedence over saints’ days – however, the book will include the Divine Office so saints’ day hymns will be essential. In addition, they will come in handy for patronal festivals and regional/local saints and paraliturgical devotions. I think that, for the sake of 30 odd hymns (excluding Marian hymns) it is well worth having a selection from the Proper of Saints.
13) CDRom – thanks for the comments and requests regarding the content of this. However, I suspect that the copyright implications for putting all the hymns on the disc are enormous – and, of course, if we want to sell melody editions for congregations, putting the hymns on paper every week defeats the object – and isn’t very eco-friendly!! It may be of interest to those of you in search of such a resource that, in addition to the CDRom which Cassell produced (which, I understand, is sadly no longer available), there is a piece of software designed, principally, for use in the CofE (Visual Liturgy) but you need to check the words carefully – some have been altered and, thou it does include the likes of Soul of my Saviour and Sweet Sacrament Divine, etc, many Catholic hymns are understandably missing.
14) Readings I agree with Tsume Tsuyu – we won’t be including the readings – nothing worse than a church full of heads buried in books or mass leaflets! The whole point of the Liturgy of the Word is surely that is should be proclaimed and received, not followed on paper!!
15) Trad hymns – Thanks to Dunstan for your comments. Yes, Wesley’s hymns will feature – they are amongst the finest hymns ever written. But so too are many of Fr Faber’s, which will also be included. As for ‘Who is she that stands triumphant’ – but of course!! No hymnbook is complete without the stirring words and spectacular R.R. Terry tune. Will not tamper with translations and I will look into the Kontakion idea. You have been looking at NEH!!! There will also be a couple of brand new settings (in simple 4-part harmony) of useful texts like the Tantum ergo, O salutaris and Ave verum etc. Would these be helpful?
16) Lastly, thanks to all who have contributed. Please keep the comments coming in and I will try to take on-board as many suggestions as I can, whilst keeping with the spirit of the book. I will keep you all posted of the progress and I hope you will all be rushing out to buy at least a shelf copy – or, even better, a set for your parishes/cathedrals! All the best, and keep the comments coming in!! Nick.
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contrabordun
- Posts: 514
- Joined: Sun May 23, 2004 4:20 pm
naughty aside
I do so hope that the lack of the punctuation in the title of Aubrey de Vere's Who is she that stands triumphant? be NOT indicative of things to come in your new hymnal, Nick... 
Benevenio.
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contrabordun
- Posts: 514
- Joined: Sun May 23, 2004 4:20 pm
Spiral bound harmony edition? NEH doesn't stay open on the music desk - even loose leaf would be better! Cantate (I think it's called) in the USA has a really neat solution to this - there is an accompaniment version which is spiral bound and landscape with two 'standard' pages per page (so in Nick's hymnal, eg, hymns 1 to 4 would be visible on an open double spread) - which also helps with the mass settings, where page turns tend to be more inevitable, and makes the accompaniment book only half as fat as would otherwise be the case - useful on a bulging music desk.
Last edited by contrabordun on Mon Nov 29, 2004 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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contrabordun
- Posts: 514
- Joined: Sun May 23, 2004 4:20 pm
I'm a bit puzzled by this, too. I've seen it writ that it's not called that any longer, but Musicam Sacram uses the terminology and it's a very convenient shorthand... what's the 'correct' version now? A specific instance set to music becomes a Mass Setting, but the generic term for the texts themselves is...?mcb wrote:that is, ahem, the Ordinary of the Mass, as we used to say.