The Processional

[NorthernTenor]

... any psalm translations or versions may be used with processional antiphons, and are preferable to many hymn texts to be found in our hymnals. The composer will hopefully choose the best texts and versions thereof for the liturgical requirement.

... I endorse the view that the texts should be used freely as a resource. By all means excerpt sentences or phrases as may best fulfil their purpose.

Another gold star to Mr. Ainslie.

[musicus]

Oh-Oh! - there's another one coming up this Sunday (texts too long to remember on your way to Communion, as Highlighted by Peter Jones too far back in the thread for the "Quote" facility to work)

That shouldn't be a problem, Q. Just click the 'Quote' button at the top of the post, et violà! It doesn't matter how far back in the thread that is. Or have I misunderstood your problem?

[johnquinn39]

That is, of course, when we wish to use the vernacular. Otherwise, there's a lot to be said for the Graduale Romanum.

How many people use latin?

I think that the Roman Gradual might work at the Oratories, and perhaps some cathedrals, but surely most RC's pray in the vernacular.

[johnquinn39]

Must get back to the topic - I suppose that Eagle's Wings is a good example of a lengthy antiphon that is memorable and easily assimilated, so that singing in procession without a worship aid is possible. Could Joncas' style teach us anything about setting some of the Processional texts? (Keep calm NT. You are entitled to answer in the negative. )

Eagle's wings is one of the very few examples of a song that RC's will actually join in with. (At communion even). Joncas' style has everything to teach us.

NT -- have you written anything as good as this? -- if you have, could you post it on your website?

[Peter Jones]

I don't think we should get into arguments about musical styles. The topic is more to do with texts. (Wish I'd not mentioned my facility to write boring music and the Joncas now)

[johnquinn39]

I don't think we should get into arguments about musical styles. The topic is more to do with texts. (Wish I'd not mentioned my facility to write boring music and the Joncas now)

Absolutely. We should not get into arguments about musical styles.

The topic is, indeed, to do with texts. Although this psalm is reccomended for the gifts, at the 10.00 Mass, we will be using it as the communion psalm. This is because it has a terrific tune, and people actually sing this (wot? RC's? -- yes!). People tell me they love the words and use them as prayer.

(I might add that there is a superp organ / choral arrangement of this, giving plenty of interest in the keyboard part, and harmony parts for the choir / music group).

Okay -- back onto texts -- there seems to be a great deal of leeway at what we sing at the processions. If there is a better tune to the exact words in the processional, I might be prepared to put this on -- but surely for pastoral reasons, it is preferable to put on something familiar.

The stlye of the music (Eagles wings) seems to me to be a hybrid -- the chorus is in similar territory to the '60's Goffin song 'I'll be true ..'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIAKCFAsGtg

The verses quote rather a lot from Orbis factor.

Regrettably, there seems to be very little in the way of musical interest in the various 'Proper' collections going round.

Could we, as I think I have said in a previous post, take a formulaic approach, and use successful songs like these as models for our own compositions -- whether we use the official text or not?

(How useful will the 'official' translations be in the long run, if they are translated from the latin rather than the original, and are achaic and non-inclusive?)

[NorthernTenor]

NT -- have you written anything as good as this? -- if you have, could you post it on your website?

Dear John, as I believe I’ve said to you before, I’m the last person to make public comment on my own music. As for the rest of your remarks: popularity or otherwise is not just difficult to judge (’m sure I could point to as many young adults who roll their eyes at the Gathering / Cremation / Eagles Wings tendency as you could others who claim to like it); it’s also a subsidiary matter. The more important question to ask of a Proper or Ordinary setting is: to what extent does it work with the sober, contemplative character of our Rite? The more it does, the more likely are we – in St. Augustine’s words – to pray twice when we sing. The less so, the more likely it is that we won’t pray at all, but merely idolise our emotions. I don’t claim a shred of originality to this idea, which comes straight from the church’s tradition on sacred music, not least the writings of the Popes of the 20th century and the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council.

It is sad that, for all the control-mania of the Liturgy Office and its secretive, unaccountable and incompetent machinations, it fails to make this central point. It is to be commended for its cooperation with John Ainslie to encourage the singing of the Propers; but unless consideration is given to issues of style and suitability, we risk ending up with the same old suspects writing the same old stuff, inflicting the same old damage on the celebration of the Rite. I’m not suggesting yet more secretive, unaccountable, over-detailed etc; just a miniumum of thoughtful guidance on matters of principle, designed to encourage good practice rather than interfere in ever more contentious, self-defeating detail.

[NorthernTenor]

That is, of course, when we wish to use the vernacular. Otherwise, there's a lot to be said for the Graduale Romanum.

How many people use latin?

I think that the Roman Gradual might work at the Oratories, and perhaps some cathedrals, but surely most RC's pray in the vernacular.

It works very well in a variety of other places, John, especially where there are priests and musicians who respect the wishes of the council fathers, grounded as they were in the liturgical tradition through which we have received our faith.

[Nick Baty]

the '60's Goffin song 'I'll be true ..'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIAKCFAsGtg

Although the Monkees version is rather superior!
http://open.spotify.com/track/3W2ynoYO7lPjOjBKuJVpyk

[musicus]

NT -- have you written anything as good as this? -- if you have, could you post it on your website?

This is an utterly specious (and rather insulting) line of argument, John. I think NT has shown remarkable restraint in his reply to you.

[NorthernTenor]

I'm interested in the development of vernacular chant complements to the traditional Latin proper settings. Adam Bartlett's Simple English Propers project is a good example of the possibilities, especially for those musicians who lack the confidence to approach the originals (wrongly in my opinion - like most sight-reading exercises, those with basic musicianship skills can achieve a lot with a little application & self-discipline). I would encourage you to explore them. John Anslie's suggestion that they don't do service to the originals misses the point - they represent a preliminary investigation that doesn't aspire to the complexity and subtlety of the original, but offers a useful and accessible blend of traditional style with the vernacular. I also feel that his emphasis on the problems such settings face with regard to text-setting reflects a wholly admirable respect for the perfection of the Latin originals, but a narrow understanding of the relation of text pattern to melody that is happy with psalm tones, yet unwilling to explore the creative fusion of the vernacular with the glories of the melismatic tradition.

Adam's chants are new compositions in a traditional style. I believe there is also room for direct developments of the traditional chants, adapted to vernacular texts in manner that is sensitive both to the language and the melismatic original, without slavishly attempting to reproduce its every note. I am beginning to experiment with this, and have reached the stage where I have begun to commit ideas to paper, but am not yet satisfied that they have reached a publishable state. We will, however, sing one such exploration on Sunday evening at the Offertory, and I offer a link to it here as a suggestion of what might be done.

ps Oh how I wish CC were here to give us his thoughts on the rhythmic issues!

pps you'll note that the secretive, unaccountable, incompetent etc Liturgy Office doesn't (can't) meddle in the publication of settings of these texts. All to the good.

[AntoineDaniel]

Does anyone know if composers are settings these texts, or is CC's example an isolated incident? It would be good if there was a 'Psallite' type project for these, though how to produce something that's cheap, durable and gives composers a fair remuneration for the immense amount of time involved is, I guess, a major issue. Would AntoineDaniel's operation consider getting involved?

Hello! Here is a wonderful solution (although I had nothing to do with producing it):

http://musicasacra.com/sep/

[musicus]

Does anyone know if composers are settings these texts, or is CC's example an isolated incident? It would be good if there was a 'Psallite' type project for these, though how to produce something that's cheap, durable and gives composers a fair remuneration for the immense amount of time involved is, I guess, a major issue. Would AntoineDaniel's operation consider getting involved?

Hello! Here is a wonderful solution (although I had nothing to do with producing it):

http://musicasacra.com/sep/

Thank you very much, Jeffrey. I haven't yet had time to study it in any detail, but I will. Plus, it is freely copiable under Creative Commons.

[alan29]

Does anyone know if composers are settings these texts, or is CC's example an isolated incident? It would be good if there was a 'Psallite' type project for these, though how to produce something that's cheap, durable and gives composers a fair remuneration for the immense amount of time involved is, I guess, a major issue. Would AntoineDaniel's operation consider getting involved?

Hello! Here is a wonderful solution (although I had nothing to do with producing it):

http://musicasacra.com/sep/

Thats an interesting source. I wonder where the assembly fit in. It might work in a community where there is adequate rehearsal time - the source of most of the chant we have, BTW - but how would it work week in week out in a parish, I wonder. Who are the antiphons designed to be sung by?

[NorthernTenor]

Does anyone know if composers are settings these texts, or is CC's example an isolated incident? It would be good if there was a 'Psallite' type project for these, though how to produce something that's cheap, durable and gives composers a fair remuneration for the immense amount of time involved is, I guess, a major issue. Would AntoineDaniel's operation consider getting involved?

Hello! Here is a wonderful solution (although I had nothing to do with producing it):

http://musicasacra.com/sep/

Thats an interesting source. I wonder where the assembly fit in. It might work in a community where there is adequate rehearsal time - the source of most of the chant we have, BTW - but how would it work week in week out in a parish, I wonder. Who are the antiphons designed to be sung by?

Well, Alan, some of us are comfortable with the idea of a balance of clergy, congregation and schola when singing the text of the mass. I've never been happy with harassment of the congregation to sing everything, because it seems to confuse activity with engagement. The liturgical movement that so informed the Council recognised this principle.