Out of the mouths of babes ...

[Calum Cille]

Just objecting to your proposition that we should all be able to. ... Just prefer to sing it in English.

Indeed you are, which is a de facto objection to the proposition that it should be done generally, which is equivalent to you raising your voice against having it in the liturgy. Why is this an objection to the proposition that it should be done generally? Because if not all are encouraged to know the mass in Latin, it will remain a ghettoed, and not a general, experience.

For one, because it's the original language.

No. Don't think it is.

It's the original language of the mass in the form in which we have it today. The vernacular translation is from no other language but Latin.

No, you did. I said, "Such logic insists that priests shouldn't wear cassocks because they'll never use them otherwise, already possessing their own clothes belonging to their own culture."

Exactly. 'Twas you who raised the cassocks!

And your point is?

No, you therefore live in a small world either because you present yourself as somehow unaware of the phenomenon of priests wearing cassocks as if that doesn't happen anywhere.

Nope! I have simply said that I do not know any priests who wear cassocks.

That'll be you presenting yourself as somehow unaware of the phenomenon of priests wearing cassocks then - within your little world.

I also said, in an earlier post, that, yes, I am aware that they are worn in some parts of the world.

Not earlier than my comments that you lived in a small world.

[Nick Baty]

which is a de facto objection to the proposition that it should be done generally, which is equivalent to you raising your voice against having it in the liturgy.

Yes, objecting to your earlier idea that we should all be able to celebrate Mass in Latin for the odd occasion when a few might find themselves out of the UK.

The vernacular translation is from no other language but Latin.

Except Welsh which, I believe, is translated from English.

And your point is?

That you are the cassock raiser, not I!

Not earlier than my comments that you lived in a small world.

Yes, but only because my lack of cassocked comrades led you to suggest my world was small! (At this rate I'm going to disappear up my own thurible!

[gwyn]

Maybe I don't really need to understand it.

There's a certain beauty in the inaudibly spoken Eucharistic Prayer too.

Just a thought.

[Calum Cille]

which is a de facto objection to the proposition that it should be done generally, which is equivalent to you raising your voice against having it in the liturgy.

Yes, objecting to your earlier idea that we should all be able to celebrate Mass in Latin for the odd occasion when a few might find themselves out of the UK.

And why not? Because of "I don't need to", "I don't want to", "what's the point" and all those other deep but ultimately puerile arguments against education in one's own culture? All Catholics should be exposed to Latin in the mass anyway for cultural reasons and therefore able to foster a culture of international verbal participation where all can say the words, instead of just those from the host country.

The vernacular translation is from no other language but Latin.

Except Welsh which, I believe, is translated from English.

English which is translated from Latin.

And your point is?

That you are the cassock raiser, not I!

I never said you were. Your point is?

Not earlier than my comments that you lived in a small world.

Yes, but only because my lack of cassocked comrades led you to suggest my world was small! (At this rate I'm going to disappear up my own thurible!

No, it was your presentation of yourself of being unaware of priests wearing cassocks which led me to suggest the smallness of your world.

[Calum Cille]

Maybe I don't really need to understand it.

This puts me in mind of Jean Vanier's writings.

[Nick Baty]

No, it was your presentation of yourself of being unaware of priests wearing cassocks which led me to suggest the smallness of your world.

I didn't say I was unaware. I said I didn't know any!

[Calum Cille]

No, it was your presentation of yourself of being unaware of priests wearing cassocks which led me to suggest the smallness of your world.

I didn't say I was unaware. I said I didn't know any!

You did not say that you were aware of them, which was an attempted evasion of my point and, combined with a claimed lack of knowledge, a presentation of yourself as being unaware.

[Nick Baty]

At 1.51pm

Such logic insists that priests shouldn't wear cassocks because they'll never use them otherwise, already possessing their own clothes belonging to their own culture.

At 1.58pm

Well, why do they need cassocks? And do you know a priest who wears one?

At 2.07pm

Nick, you really are living in a little, little world if you don't.

At 2.15pm

Not at all. I just don't happen to have any mates who wear them!

At 2.23pm

That's exactly what I meant - the little, little world of you and your mates.

At 2.30pm

....but then I live a little life as I don't know any priests who still wear a cassock either

At 2.33pm

So because I don't happen to know any priests who wear cassocks I somehow live in a little world?

At 2.46pm

You are both so parochial! The Catholic world isn't limited to your little part of the earth, you know. Are you both telling me they don't wear them at mass?

At 2.49pm

Nope. We're a tad quirky up here. They wear albs and chasubles.

At 3.30pm

you reply that you don't personally know any priests that weak cassocks, as if i) they never wore them at all, even at mass, and ii) that there were no priests who wore cassocks anywhere in the world.

At 3.37pm

i/a) I do not know any priests who wear a cassock
i/b)At Mass a priest wears alb and stole, sometimes (but not always) a chasuble.
ii)Yes, I do know that in some parts of the world, priests wear cassocks. I do not live in those parts of the world. That is why I do not know any priests who wear cassocks.

4.27pm

No, you therefore live in a small world either because you present yourself as somehow unaware of the phenomenon of priests wearing cassocks as if that doesn't happen anywhere. You have tried to use that lack of recognition in a vain attempt to invalidate my point, which stands, whether or not priests wear cassocks.

5.43pm

You did not say that you were aware of them, which was an attempted evasion of my point and, combined with a claimed lack of knowledge, a presentation of yourself as being unaware.

Now that last one really baffled me. As good a cue as any to turn to some classical cassocks!

[Calum Cille]

1.58pm

And do you know a priest who wears one?

The implication here is that priests customarily don't wear albs, a vain attempt to evade my point.

3.22pm

And no cassock underneath the alb?

I believe it was yourself who wrote at 3.37pm, not I.

[nazard]

...There's a certain beauty in the inaudibly spoken Eucharistic Prayer too.

Just a thought.

The most perceptive comment of the day.

[Nick Baty]

And do you know a priest who wears one?

The implication here is that priests customarily don't wear albs, a vain attempt to evade my point.
You are confusing me. I have never suggested that priests don't wear albs!3.22pm

And no cassock underneath the alb?

No. Why would they? They'd roast!

I believe it was yourself who wrote at 3.37pm, not I.

On that I heartily agree and have edited!

[Calum Cille]

And do you know a priest who wears one?

The implication here is that priests customarily don't wear albs, a vain attempt to evade my point.

You are confusing me. I have never suggested that priests don't wear albs!

You did by implication when you wrote, "And do you know a priest who wears one?"

And no cassock underneath the alb?

No. Why would they? They'd roast!

Then they might be wearing cassock-albs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alb

Nowadays, the alb is the common vestment for all ministers at Mass, both clerics and laypersons, and is worn over the cassock and under any other special garments, such as the stole, dalmatic or chasuble.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassock-alb

The cassock alb or cassalb is a relatively modern garment and is a combination of the traditional cassock and alb. It developed as a convenient undergarment worn by clergy and as an alternative to the alb for deacons and acolytes.

[Nick Baty]

You did by implication when you wrote, "And do you know a priest who wears one?" and "I just don't happen to have any mates who wear them!"

We weren't discussing albs. We were discussing cassocks.

[Calum Cille]

We weren't discussing albs. We were discussing cassocks.

You mentioned them as alternatives to cassocks when you wrote, "Nope. We're a tad quirky up here. They wear albs and chasubles."

[Nick Baty]

Because you said, "Are you both telling me they don't wear them [cassocks] at mass?" Now stop making me giggle while I'm sorting out my briefs!