The Missal arrives

Well it does to the people who post here... dispassionate and reasoned debate, with a good deal of humour thrown in for good measure.

Moderators: Dom Perignon, Casimir

Peter Jones
Posts: 604
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:46 am
Parish / Diocese: Birmingham

The Missal arrives

Post by Peter Jones »

I have now received the Missal. (Missals - one of each size) Well done CTS. It is beautifully produced.
Any opinions expressed are my own, not those of the Archdiocese of Birmingham Liturgy Commission, Church Music Committee.
Website
Peter Jones
Posts: 604
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:46 am
Parish / Diocese: Birmingham

Re: The Missal arrives

Post by Peter Jones »

Changes to GIRM

ENTRANCE

Was -

48. The singing at this time is done either alternately by the choir and the people
or in a similar way by the cantor and the people, or entirely by the people, or
by the choir alone. In the dioceses of England and Wales the options for the
Entrance Chant are: (1) the antiphon and psalm from the Graduale Romanum or
the Graduale Simplex; or (2) a song from another collection of psalms and
antiphons, the text of which has been approved by the Bishops’ Conference of
England and Wales.

Now -

In England and Wales:

This chant is sung alternately by the choir and the people or similarly by a cantor and the people, or entirely by the people, or by the choir alone.
In the dioceses of England and Wales the
Entrance Chant may be chosen from among the following:

- the antiphon with its Psalm from the Graduale Romanum or
the Graduale Simplex
- or another chant that is suited to the to the sacred action, the day, or the time of year, and whose text has been approved by the Conference of Bishops of England and Wales.

OFFERTORY

74 - no change

COMMUNION

Was -

87. In the dioceses of the England and Wales the options for the Communion
chant are as follows: (1) the antiphon from the Graduale Romanum either with
or without the psalm; (2) the antiphon with the psalm from the Graduale
Simplex; (3) a song from another collection of psalms and antiphons, approved
by the Bishops’ Conference of England and Wales. It is sung either by the choir
alone or by the choir or cantor with the people.

Now -

In the dioceses of England and Wales singing at Communion may be chosen from among the following:

- the antiphon from the Graduale Romanum either with
or without the Psalm or the antiphon with the psalm from the Graduale
Simplex,

- or some other suitable liturgical chant approved by the Conference of Bishops of England and Wales.

This is sung either by the choir
alone or by the choir or cantor with the people.
Any opinions expressed are my own, not those of the Archdiocese of Birmingham Liturgy Commission, Church Music Committee.
Website
User avatar
Nick Baty
Posts: 2199
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:27 am
Parish / Diocese: Formerly Our Lady Immaculate, Everton, Liverpool
Contact:

Re: The Missal arrives

Post by Nick Baty »

Peter Jones wrote:the text of which has been approved by the Bishops’ Conference of England and Wales.

Does that mean that much of what we've been singing is now out of the window?
And/or does that mean that when the new editions of books like Laudate come out, we'll be able to carry on singing what we were singing on the basis that such books will then have an Imprimatur?
Peter Jones
Posts: 604
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:46 am
Parish / Diocese: Birmingham

Re: The Missal arrives

Post by Peter Jones »

Blessing of the fire at the Easter Vigil...

…grant that,
by these paschal celebrations,
we may be so inflamed with heavenly desires,
that with minds made pure
we may attain festivities of unending splendour.


I can cope with that! :D
Any opinions expressed are my own, not those of the Archdiocese of Birmingham Liturgy Commission, Church Music Committee.
Website
NorthernTenor
Posts: 794
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 7:26 pm
Parish / Diocese: Southwark

Re: The Missal arrives

Post by NorthernTenor »

Interesting. No mention of metrical hymns, before or after. I don’t draw the inference that hymns are forbidden; rather, that the emphasis is on the chanting of given texts, whatever else pastoral considerations might add in particular places.

Note, also, that there’s no mention of the Missal antiphons, unless they are covered indirectly by “other chants approved by the Bishops of England and Wales” (tho’ that would be a strange way to refer to texts whose approval is not in their gift). I guess this reinforces their place as spoken substitutes where music is unavailable.

Note also the range of options, which include choir alone. No assemblyolatry here, thank you.
Ian Williams
Alium Music
Peter Jones
Posts: 604
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:46 am
Parish / Diocese: Birmingham

Re: The Missal arrives

Post by Peter Jones »

Nick Baty wrote:
Peter Jones wrote:the text of which has been approved by the Bishops’ Conference of England and Wales.

Does that mean that much of what we've been singing is now out of the window?


I doubt it - look at what the Australian Bishops have done here - 1967 texts (that's a number, not a year) - http://www.catholic.org.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1653&Itemid=385
Any opinions expressed are my own, not those of the Archdiocese of Birmingham Liturgy Commission, Church Music Committee.
Website
User avatar
Calum Cille
Posts: 327
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:53 pm
Parish / Diocese: Earra-Ghaidheal s na h-Eileanan - Argyll and the Isles
Location: Ceann Locha, Alba / Campbeltown, Scotland
Contact:

Re: The Missal arrives

Post by Calum Cille »

'Chant' is just a loaded translation because 'cantus' can mean 'chant' and 'song'. 'Here I Am, Lord' is therefore a 'chant' as far as the Latin is concerned. Does the word 'song' appear anywhere in the text?
Last edited by Calum Cille on Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Peter Jones
Posts: 604
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:46 am
Parish / Diocese: Birmingham

Re: The Missal arrives

Post by Peter Jones »

48. Peragitur autem a schola et populo alternatim, vel simili modo a canto- re et populo, vel totus a populo vel a schola sola. Adhiberi potest sive antipho- na cum suo psalmo in Graduali romano vel in Graduali simplici exstans, sive alius cantus, actioni sacræ, diei vel temporis indoli congruus,55 cuius textus a Conferentia Episcoporum sit approbatus.


"Chant" simply translates "Cantus" NT. I think it's a pretty general term encompassing several musical/textual forms.
Any opinions expressed are my own, not those of the Archdiocese of Birmingham Liturgy Commission, Church Music Committee.
Website
User avatar
gwyn
Posts: 1148
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 3:42 pm
Parish / Diocese: Archdiocese of Cardiff
Location: Abertillery, South Wales UK

Re: The Missal arrives

Post by gwyn »

Is ther a term for circumventing the guidance of the Holy Spirit?
Southern Comfort
Posts: 2024
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:31 pm

Re: The Missal arrives

Post by Southern Comfort »

Peter Jones wrote:Changes to GIRM

ENTRANCE

Was -

48. The singing at this time is done either alternately by the choir and the people
or in a similar way by the cantor and the people, or entirely by the people, or
by the choir alone. In the dioceses of England and Wales the options for the
Entrance Chant are: (1) the antiphon and psalm from the Graduale Romanum or
the Graduale Simplex; or (2) a song from another collection of psalms and
antiphons, the text of which has been approved by the Bishops’ Conference of
England and Wales.

Now -

In England and Wales:

This chant is sung alternately by the choir and the people or similarly by a cantor and the people, or entirely by the people, or by the choir alone.
In the dioceses of England and Wales the
Entrance Chant may be chosen from among the following:

- the antiphon with its Psalm from the Graduale Romanum or
the Graduale Simplex
- or another chant that is suited to the to the sacred action, the day, or the time of year, and whose text has been approved by the Conference of Bishops of England and Wales.

OFFERTORY

74 - no change

COMMUNION

Was -

87. In the dioceses of the England and Wales the options for the Communion
chant are as follows: (1) the antiphon from the Graduale Romanum either with
or without the psalm; (2) the antiphon with the psalm from the Graduale
Simplex; (3) a song from another collection of psalms and antiphons, approved
by the Bishops’ Conference of England and Wales. It is sung either by the choir
alone or by the choir or cantor with the people.

Now -

In the dioceses of England and Wales singing at Communion may be chosen from among the following:

- the antiphon from the Graduale Romanum either with
or without the Psalm or the antiphon with the psalm from the Graduale
Simplex,

- or some other suitable liturgical chant approved by the Conference of Bishops of England and Wales.

This is sung either by the choir
alone or by the choir or cantor with the people.


This has happened because the CDWDS recently decided that all English versions of GIRM should be in agreement with each other instead of having significant differences. The only one that accurately translated the Latin was Australia (2007), so USA (2002) and E&W (2005) are being brought into line with it.

This will be a particular problem for the Americans because they formerly had the wording "approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop". A huge amount of material has been published under the auspices of diocesan bishops in whose dioceses publishing houses are physically located, without the entire Conference or its agencies having to be involved. I can't imagine that they would be able to withdraw all or indeed any of it without running into litigation on a grand scale.
John Ainslie
Posts: 395
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 10:23 am

Re: The Missal arrives

Post by John Ainslie »

A reminder that all the texts of the Graduale Romanum and Graduale Simplex for Sundays and holidays are easily accessible in the Processional produced by the Society of Saint Gregory. Musicians, over to you...

Notice that the excerpts quoted above make no mention of the Missal. That is because, in the context of, say, the Entrance Song, the Missal is only mentioned in the following sentence: 'If there is no singing at the Entrance, the antiphon given in the Missal is recited...' True, that antiphon is often the same as that in Graduale Romanum, but not always - and in any case, you would be well advised to look elsewhere to discover the most appropriate psalm with which to sing the antiphon.

As for what other 'text[s]' or 'liturgical chant[s]' the Conference of Bishops of E&W might or might not have approved - that is something else...
NorthernTenor
Posts: 794
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 7:26 pm
Parish / Diocese: Southwark

Re: The Missal arrives

Post by NorthernTenor »

Calum Cille wrote:'Chant' is just a loaded translation because 'cantus' can mean 'chant' and 'song'. 'Here I Am, Lord' is therefore a 'chant' as far as the Latin is concerned. Does the word 'song' appear anywhere in the text?


Peter Jones wrote:
48. Peragitur autem a schola et populo alternatim, vel simili modo a canto- re et populo, vel totus a populo vel a schola sola. Adhiberi potest sive antipho- na cum suo psalmo in Graduali romano vel in Graduali simplici exstans, sive alius cantus, actioni sacræ, diei vel temporis indoli congruus,55 cuius textus a Conferentia Episcoporum sit approbatus.


"Chant" simply translates "Cantus" NT. I think it's a pretty general term encompassing several musical/textual forms.


Actually, I wasn’t trying to make a point about chant, but about the GIRM’s emphasis on the use of Propers authorised for singing, rather than the substitution of extra-liturgical hymn texts. Perhaps you thought I was making a point about chant as such, because I used the word: however, I only did so because it was chosen by the GIRM translators. I intended no point about the kinds of music to be used.

Now you mention it, though, the use of the word and the apparent sensitivity to it are interesting in a number of ways. Use of “chant” rather than “song” is similar to the use of “chalice” rather than “cup”; both appear to have been chosen for their traditional associations, to reinforce the sacramental associations of the object. In the case of “chalice”, that is so in a narrow sense; for “chant” in a broader sense, though one equally rooted in tradition. Song has been in indissoluble part of Christian ritual since its beginnings, and the re-emphasis of that truth was a remarkable constant of the magisterium’s liturgical teaching in the twentieth century, both in Papal and Conciliar documents. One cannot observe that truism without also noting that Popes and Council have consistently taught the place of chant (in the stricter sense of the word) as the foremost ritual expression of song, because of its inextricable development with and as part of the western Rite.

So while it is true to say that chant need not be the only form of ritual music, I would suggest that its cultural centrality to our ritual gives the word a resonance and depth that explain its use by the translators. Correspondingly, it does not surprise me that some who favour post-Conciliar discontinuity (not necessarily those who have commented here) may be a little nervous about the possible implications of the word’s use.
Ian Williams
Alium Music
Southern Comfort
Posts: 2024
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:31 pm

Re: The Missal arrives

Post by Southern Comfort »

The Latin cantus can mean both "chant" and "song", as CC points out. The same is true of the French chant which can also be translated as either. Latin cantare means "to sing", not "to chant". Perhaps cantillare would be "to chant", though technically this means cantillation, which is a narrower definition than chanting.

But we're off topic, I fear.
NorthernTenor
Posts: 794
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 7:26 pm
Parish / Diocese: Southwark

Re: The Missal arrives

Post by NorthernTenor »

Southern Comfort wrote:The Latin cantus can mean both "chant" and "song", as CC points out. The same is true of the French chant which can also be translated as either. Latin cantare means "to sing", not "to chant". Perhaps cantillare would be "to chant", though technically this means cantillation, which is a narrower definition than chanting.

Southern Comfort wrote:But we're off topic, I fear.


I'm happy to allay your fear, Paul. The thread was created by one who followed his first comment with another about the points of similarity and difference between the two GIRM translations. Discussion of the cultural resonance of the translators' choice of the word "chant", within the context of modern Papal & Conciliar thought and the wider liturgical tradition, is germane. I'm sorry you missed the point, though I grant it's more nuanced than those that seem to engage your attention.
Ian Williams
Alium Music
User avatar
musicus
Moderator
Posts: 1605
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 8:47 am
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: The Missal arrives

Post by musicus »

Let's play nicely, people (and, incidentally, respect the pseudonymity of those that opt to employ it).
musicus - moderator, Liturgy Matters
blog
Post Reply