David Haas

[Calum Cille]

Where has this imagery of Jesus = Wine come from? The Reformation?

Beats me. Smarts of concomitance to me, which is a bit rum in a hymn by a Protestant.

[Gedackt flute]

[.........with the real presence in the bread & wine

Are you a Lutheran GF?

No, I am an RC (but I use some Lutheran texts).

-- Is Christ really absent in the bread & the wine? -- or am I misreading you.

[Peter Jones]

Is Christ really absent in the bread & the wine? -- or am I misreading you.

I'm not sure what you're doing!

There are many ways of talking about the Eucharist, among which are:

- it's typological anticipation in the Old Testament
- the ways in which its reality is expressed in the New Testament (for example, "I am the living bread that came down from heaven'; 'I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.' (John 6))

but let's keep things simple and consider the words the priest/deacon or lay minister speaks to you at the reception of communion. 'The Body of Christ'; 'The Blood of Christ'. This is what Jesus says they are. That's what they are.(I don't think I can express transubstantion any more simply.) There is no bread and wine at communion - there is only Christ - so speaking of Christ as somehow just "in" bread and wine does not quite hit the mark.

"Nourished by Jesus, the Wine and the Bread" ........ I think that's very weak.

By the way - there's a certain irony to this Mennonite text in that the outcasts of verse two might actually refer to other groups of Mennonites. Fission characterises so much of Protestantism and the Mennonites themselves seem to have difficulty in loving one another. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mennonite#Schisms

[Peter Jones]

By the way again - to get me back on topic - I have no objection whatsoever to David Haas' music for this text. It hums along pleasantly.

[Calum Cille]

With the knowledge that the writer is Mennonite, those words, "Nourished by Jesus, the Wine and the Bread", make it sound like I'm singing another conception of eucharist. There are no capitals when singing, so the listener will hear, "nourished by jesus, the wine and the bread", which can be interpreted as three separate things, namely, Jesus, wine, and bread. My understanding is that Mennonites would indeed conceive of them as being three separate things. Capitalising "Wine" and "Bread" here might make the ideas seem more orthodox but, assuming that the capitalisation has the author's authorship or consent, then even the capitalisation seems Mennonite, where Jesus is metaphorically Wine and Bread but not really swallowable wine and chewable bread.

Regarding Jesus being Wine or wine, the criticism here would be that the imagery is not found in scripture and is a relatively modern fashion in either Catholic or Protestant circles and therefore just ... strange. Imagine singing, "I am the wine of life, he who believes in me shall not thirst".

More significantly, through the action of the Holy Spirit at mass, the substance of wine changes to that of the precious Blood but the accident of wine does not, hence our senses perceive it as wine (O Godhead Hid). As Catholics we are not "nourished by Jesus" (ie, spiritually) as wine and bread; nor are we "coming together for wine and for bread" for we do not drink bread and wine at mass in terms of substances: we partake of the sacred Body and precious Blood of our Lord. I can have a bread and wine feast afterwards. Only the accidents of bread and wine exist, not the substance, when we receive communion. This might not seem quite as difficult or confusing when we imagine the converse: something that appears, in accident, to be our Lord but is actually, in substance, just bread and wine!

So those lines feel strange and are verbally inaccurate; it's a question of using familiar language to describe or misdescribe.

[Southern Comfort]

Back to David Haas.

I rather liked this tune & text in the new 'Gather'.

http://www.giamusic.com/pdf/HymnalSampler_GatherIII.pdf

-See page 18.

However, RC's sadly will not be 'Coming together for wine & bread' in the Phoenix and Wisconsin dioceses.

Alas, this link is not working for me.

[Southern Comfort]

Yes, the director of liturgy for Portsmouth diocese is Paul Inwood, and his diocese claims to have a more generous provision of Extraordinary Form celebrations than many other English dioceses.

That's quite a good joke, too, Paul (in a dark sort of way). Whatever did come of the obstructions you tried to put in the way of Trads attempting to claim their rights under Summorum back in 2007 (the Child Protection thing was a sly touch)? Such a shame it came out into the open; but maybe that explains the libellous vehemence of your comments on this board against one of the Priests who commented on the matter.

No idea what you're on about.

[NorthernTenor]

No idea what you're on about.

What a poor memory you have, Paul (I'll assume it isn't simple shamelessness). Perhaps bubble-gum music is as much a threat to the memory cells as it is the moral fibre.

[musicus]

Back to the topic, please!