Looking for good tunes & new texts

Well it does to the people who post here... dispassionate and reasoned debate, with a good deal of humour thrown in for good measure.

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NorthernTenor
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Re: Looking for good tunes & new texts

Post by NorthernTenor »

Gedackt flute wrote:
Peter Jones wrote:I think I should also raise the point that Looking for good tunes & new texts omits any consideration of ritual function.


I honestly don't think so! The rites are musical, and so need good tunes. For example, Chris Walker's Alleluia from the New Belmont Mass is, in my view, a terrific tune. I think people will sing it, although I could be totally wrong about this.

The Gloria is a rite in itself, and as the text has been revised, I am looking for a good tune to sing it to - whether this is newly composed, or a different version of something that we already have, or something from tradition, for example Gloria XV.

I also feel that some of the new texts of John Bell, Marty Haugen, and Bernadette Farrell are needed as they weave in ideas from Lumen Gentium, and expand on already existing scriptural and liturgical texts.


I think you've missed Fr. Peter's point, John, which is that how we define 'good tunes' in the context of the liturgy must depend in part on the music's suitability to the text's liturgical function. I would also suggest that we cannot consider suitability to the function of particular elements in isolation; that is, without considering their context within the wider liturgy, and within the tradition that defines it and gives a cultural context to the ars celebrandi.

I also fear that a search for 'new texts', rather than settings of the liturgical text, rather misses the point that our priority is to sing the Mass, not adorn it with our supplementary thoughts. Or so the Council Fathers seemed to say.
Ian Williams
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Gedackt flute
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Re: Looking for good tunes & new texts

Post by Gedackt flute »

NorthernTenor wrote:
I think you've missed Fr. Peter's point, John, which is that how we define 'good tunes' in the context of the liturgy must depend in part on the music's suitability to the text's liturgical function. I would also suggest that we cannot consider suitability to the function of particular elements in isolation; that is, without considering their context within the wider liturgy, and within the tradition that defines it and gives a cultural context to the ars celebrandi.

I also fear that a search for 'new texts', rather than settings of the liturgical text, rather misses the point that our priority is to sing the Mass, not adorn it with our supplementary thoughts. Or so the Council Fathers seemed to say.


Again, I honestly don't think this is the case! I am interested in using the Alleluia and Gloria mentioned in my last post, precisely because, in my view, they ARE suitable to their liturgical functions. The RC tradition is indeed catholic - and I am looking for good music in any style.

The 'new' texts, I think, are needed to express our belief, and 'break open' the Word.
Peter Jones
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Re: Looking for good tunes & new texts

Post by Peter Jones »

NorthernTenor wrote:I think you've missed Fr. Peter's point, John, which is that how we define 'good tunes' in the context of the liturgy must depend in part on the music's suitability to the text's liturgical function.


For example:

Peter Jones wrote:
HelenR wrote:Edwin Fawcett's last album Stronghold based on Grail psalm settings


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO1Wk_K0qKc


This Psalm setting (with additional verse(s) [He does not treat us according to our sins &c…] in this particular musical style would, in my opinion, work well at a Vigil for the Deceased - Funeral Rites - in the parish where I serve, should the cultural/ethnic mix of the mourners be familiar with the musical style. For some people - and I realise by no means all - this Psalm setting would be a powerful instrument of prayer, and especially so at a Funeral Vigil, where such an extended musical and meditative treatment of the text could be appropriate. Yet as a responsorial psalm setting for Sundays, I wouldn't suggest it. It's too long.

Gedackt flute wrote:
The other artists are accomplished CCM musos, however, I'm sure their material is more intended to be listened to - or perfomed at a praise & worship service.


Yes.
Any opinions expressed are my own, not those of the Archdiocese of Birmingham Liturgy Commission, Church Music Committee.
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alan29
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Re: Looking for good tunes & new texts

Post by alan29 »

I wonder if a setting of the Gloria that doesn't express praise and joy, and doesn't lead the congregation to praise God is appropriate at all.
Eastern Promise
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Re: Looking for good tunes & new texts

Post by Eastern Promise »

"The other artists are accomplished CCM musos, however, I'm sure their material is more intended to be listened to - or perfomed at a praise & worship service."

But that is the new paradigm, Mrs Gedackt. Didn't you know? Have you ever attended a teen mass in the US? That is Vat II in action. "Actual particpation" means listening obediently to the wannabe pop stars that have been unleashed in the war against 'doctrine' and tradition n' stuff...
NorthernTenor
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Re: Looking for good tunes & new texts

Post by NorthernTenor »

alan29 wrote:I wonder if a setting of the Gloria that doesn't express praise and joy, and doesn't lead the congregation to praise God is appropriate at all.


Well, thank goodness for those who have worked out in the last 40 years how to do it properly. Mind you, the Church took its time with all that inappropriate stuff, didn't it?
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Eastern Promise
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Re: Looking for good tunes & new texts

Post by Eastern Promise »

NorthernTenor wrote:
alan29 wrote:I wonder if a setting of the Gloria that doesn't express praise and joy, and doesn't lead the congregation to praise God is appropriate at all.


Well, thank goodness for those who have worked out in the last 40 years how to do it properly. Mind you, the Church took its time with all that inappropriate stuff, didn't it?



No need to be sarcastic, NT.
alan29
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Re: Looking for good tunes & new texts

Post by alan29 »

So if the music isn't there to express the text of the Gloria, what is its function? Ornament without meaning?
Shame about the sarcasm. a shame, but sadly, not a surprise. :roll:
Gedackt flute
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Re: Looking for good tunes & new texts

Post by Gedackt flute »

Peter Jones wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8okACq1TowQ

As the name has been mentioned - is this typical of Redman's output? I regret it didn't engage me for the full four and a half minutes. I became a little bored after a minute and a half..... not something I would have experienced, possibly, had it been more akin to the Taizé idiom.



I don't think that this is typical. However, the below is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GeGNHuzXkY

We come to your mountain
The hill of the Lord we would ascend
And journey into your holy place
To feast in your presence
And bring our devotions to you, God
We come as a kingdom of your priests

To minister at your holy throne
Where thousands of angels joyfully sing

We're climbing up the mountain of the Lord
Towards your holy place
And every step is praise
Encountering the glory of your name
Your throne of holiness
The wonders of your grace

Come, come let us worship
Come let us recognize what a sacred thing we do
Come, let us bow down
God, as we bring our hearts
Let them please the heart of you
We enter your santuary
Peter Jones
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Re: Looking for good tunes & new texts

Post by Peter Jones »

Gedackt flute wrote:I don't think that this is typical. However, the below is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GeGNHuzXkY


Oh my! Not exactly in the spirit of the disciples encountering our risen Lord on the lakeshore cooking breakfast, don't you think?

I regret to say, not to my taste and in my opinion, intensely depressing. If our moderators might permit a partial descent into into the bowels of scatology, I could be tempted to say that - in my opinion - it might - to some listeners - exhibit quite a high level of constraint and restriction and a pronounced lack of ease. I shall resist the temptation, for I'm sure that given the composer's/performer's popularity in some circles, there are avid followers of this genre. I cannot see myself following this path but uphold the right of those who can pray with this music so to do.
Any opinions expressed are my own, not those of the Archdiocese of Birmingham Liturgy Commission, Church Music Committee.
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VML
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Re: Looking for good tunes & new texts

Post by VML »

I've tried both these links and it reinforces my impression that somehow CCM guitarists all seem to play the 'chung-ch- chung-chung' style for virtually everything. This seems to me pretty dated, usually to the first 2 years of learning guitar..
I play guitar in church, but I am also a folk musician, and have been influenced by many whom I have not a hope of actually equalling, but can at least try to make things a lot more interesting, Bert Jansch and Jake Thackray among others.
Gedackt flute
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Re: Looking for good tunes & new texts

Post by Gedackt flute »

Peter Jones wrote:
I regret to say, not to my taste and in my opinion, intensely depressing. If our moderators might permit a partial descent into into the bowels of scatology, I could be tempted to say that - in my opinion - it might - to some listeners - exhibit quite a high level of constraint and restriction and a pronounced lack of ease. I shall resist the temptation, for I'm sure that given the composer's/performer's popularity in some circles, there are avid followers of this genre. I cannot see myself following this path but uphold the right of those who can pray with this music so to do.


Okay, not to eveyone's taste - however, I see nothing at all depressing with the text - it is loaded with scriptural references.

This type of music really does seem to be delivering the Gospel in a way that, in my view, the RC church is not doing.
Eastern Promise
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Re: Looking for good tunes & new texts

Post by Eastern Promise »

Yes, GF, I think it's high time some of us flounced off to the the Protestants...

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nazard
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Re: Looking for good tunes & new texts

Post by nazard »

VML wrote:...Jake Thackray ...


Could we have more music in his mould, please?

Peter Jones wrote:...intensely depressing...


Seconded.

Gedackt flute wrote:This type of music really does seem to be delivering the Gospel...


Deo gratias: it is delivering the Gospel.
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gwyn
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Re: Looking for good tunes & new texts

Post by gwyn »

Jake Thackray


Late prishoner of St. Mary's R.C. church, Monmouth, South Wales.
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