The New Texts: Formation (discussion)

[Eastern Promise]

[moderated]

[musicus]

(as far as I am aware Scotland has not been given permission to use the new music before then)

So, is it business as usual in Scotland this September? And has here been any organised formation for the October events?

[Nick Baty]

And it's business as usual here in Liverpool until 2nd October. I'm reliably informed that the reason we've declared independence is that early September is not the most practical time of year for such a change – people not involved with parish music have been (and still are) away on holiday. If I understand correctly, the idea is that we can have three or four Sundays of explanation about what's going to happen.

In our parish we've been singing new acclamations since February – three sets to date and adding one more in October/November. However, we'll be leaving the Gloria until after Christmas. Will get through Midnight Mass with something responsorial with verses adapted to new text. I'm not sure New Year's Day is a good time to introduce a new Gloria so it could be January 8th before we get going with that.

But I'm finding the planning rather complicated. That will give us just seven Sundays before Lent – well we can't exactly sing the same Gloria seven Sundays on the trot so I'm not really sure how we'll get around that one.

[Nick Baty]

I believe Hexham & Newcastle has selected three settings, of differing styles, which the diocesan choir will be demonstrating at various venues. I think they're hoping these will be used at diocesan events.

[mcb]

we can't exactly sing the same Gloria seven Sundays on the trot.

Oh? I can't see a problem with that at all. If you want to use a good through-composed setting of the Gloria to plant the new text in people's hearts and minds, seven repetitions will hardly be enough. Just pick a good one.

TBH, I'm surprised you're leaving the Gloria till January, Nick. A good singing assembly like yours would be sure to pick up a new one in no time if you started now, or soon. Easier than learning the spoken text!

[Nick Baty]

A good singing assembly like yours...

We're a very ordinary, very small parish.
But same piece seven weeks on the run? I suspect they'd get fed up!
Leaving it until January as we're concentrating on acclamations.
Three sets to date. And we'll have four by Christmas
Also, one of the Glorias we're planning is based on one of the Holys we're doing – makes sense to do the latter first.

[Calum Cille]

(as far as I am aware Scotland has not been given permission to use the new music before then)

So, is it business as usual in Scotland this September? And has here been any organised formation for the October events?

I only know of the events about which I gave information on the following webpages.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1202&start=120
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1219&start=510

The up-to-date words on the subject by some of the bishops can be found at the following webpages.
http://www.rcdai.org.uk/news/2011/09/03 ... issal.html
http://www.rcag.org.uk/documents/Pastor ... Missal.pdf
http://www.dioceseofaberdeen.org/index. ... 0#more-660

The Bishop of Argyll and the Isles is on the National Liturgy Commission and will no doubt be seeing in the new translation at the diocesan Pastoral Music Weekend this weekend.

[musicus]

Thank you, CC.

[quaeritor]

In the thread entitled "New texts - some practical points" I referred in passing to the Spanish form of the Holy Holy Holy - I wasn't sure if the usage I had encountered was "old" or "new" translation, not knowing when the new trnslation came into use in non-English-speaking circles. I did not labour the point there, as that thread was meant to deal with practical effects of the new translation on the way in which the music might be constructed. I hope it is not too far off topic for this thread.

I have now discovered (by chance while looking at a bi-lingual setting) that the Spanish " . . santo es el Señor" (Holy is the Lord) is the new translation, and it continues "Dios del universo" which is certainly not a literal translation of "Deus Sabaoth" nor anything as arcane as "God of Hosts" (which after a lapse of some millennia doesn't really mean anything to anyone any more). Finally, it's "Hosanna en en cielo" which I suppose literally translated is "Hosanna in the Heaven", although English would not use a definite article there (not that such considerations appear to be allowable to our translators). In any case it is exactly the same wording as the earlier "Lienos estan el cielo y la tierra . . " - "full are heaven and earth . . " so it means just that: "Hosanna in heaven". You will have spotted elsewhere that my Latin is rudimentary, but I can't see how "In excelsis" becomes "in the highest" (definite article allowed there I note) - I'm not sure what "excelsis" actually means but it isn't "anything-issimus", so whence the superlative?

So - how can the Spanish translation have such flexibility and modernity or colloquiality but not the English? Is it perhaps that the Spanish is not at risk of contamination by a large non-Catholic parallel? [Ut unum non sint}? Does anyone know how the German has fared? - that might be a better comparison.

Q

[Nick Baty]

I'm not sure that's a new translation, Q.
Isn't that what they've always had?
In fact, I didn't think Spain was getting a new translation – could wrong there.

[quaeritor]

Well, OK, Nick - a couple of assumptions there. I followed a link to the Belmont Mass and while on the American site I browsed a couple of other settings - noticed there was a Spanish section, went a-browsing and found a "bi-lingual" Mass with the new English and the quoted Spanish together so at least it's current Spanish (and in the "New" list). I'm also obviously confused about the source - I thought there was a new Latin "Typical Edition" (typical of what, I wonder in passing) which we had to follow, and I assumed that meant everyone. (I did also ask in a post on the other thread if it was only the trouble-making English speakers who had to do their homework again and re-translate, but answer came there none.)

Any clarification more than welcome.

Q

[Nick Baty]

I could very well be wrong Q – 'twas just a thought.
I looked at a 2004 text and it was the same as the bits you quoted.
I'm sure someone will come along with the right answer.
N

[nazard]

... but I can't see how "In excelsis" becomes "in the highest" (definite article allowed there I note) - I'm not sure what "excelsis" actually means but it isn't "anything-issimus", so whence the superlative?

So - how can the Spanish translation have such flexibility and modernity or colloquiality but not the English? Is it perhaps that the Spanish is not at risk of contamination by a large non-Catholic parallel? [Ut unum non sint}? Does anyone know how the German has fared? - that might be a better comparison.

Q

I can't help you with the German, but the Croatian is "Hosana u visini," which is "Hosanna in the high place," (no suplerlative, and singular). As far as I know there is no plan to revise the Croatian text, which is pretty faithful to the latin without being Yodaesque in the least.
Looking at this online latin dictionary it translates "excelsus" as elevated, lofty or high: excelsis is the ablative plural. The ablative case is required after "in", and it is plural, but not superlative. It looks to me as though the correct English would be "Hosanna in (the) highs." Whether to put "the" in is a matter of taste appropriate to the language concerned. Latin and Croatian have no definite article, so it is not a problem. In English we do not put "the" before heaven, treating it the way we treat most proper nouns (sorry Lye, but you are an odd sort of place anyway.) In Welsh they often put "Y" before "nefoedd": perhaps Gwyn knows the Welsh "Sanctus". I can't find it online.

The Croatian text also puts the commas where ICEL likes them.

[Calum Cille]

... it continues "Dios del universo" which is certainly not a literal translation of "Deus Sabaoth" nor anything as arcane as "God of Hosts" (which after a lapse of some millennia doesn't really mean anything to anyone any more).

I disagree, for a whole host of reasons. As for the castellano-speakers not translating "sabaoth" as the common modern word for the concept, ie "armies", I wonder who has ... Castillian only has one word for "army" that I'm aware of and so translators would have no alternative.

... I can't see how "In excelsis" becomes "in the highest" (definite article allowed there I note) - I'm not sure what "excelsis" actually means but it isn't "anything-issimus", so whence the superlative?

The original Greek term (in the singular) is the superlative ύψιστος (highest/Most High) from the theorised ύψι (high). This is separate terminology from υψηλός (high/proud) and ο υψηλότερος (the highest) or the word ύψωμα (height/stronghold). I presume that "altíssimus" would not be used on its own in the plural in relation to heaven because that wouldn't be idiomatic (as it still isn't) and that "excelsus" would be superior in this regard, if you'll forgive the pun; also, "altus" would parallel υψηλός and "excelsus" would parallel ύψιστος.

I would also presume that this latin phrase hasn't been translated into Spanish as the common singular "en lo alto" (lit. in the high [place]) or the more literally correct plural "en las alturas" (lit. in the high [places]) because those phrases wouldn't commonly be used on their own to refer to heaven directly, whereas the "en el cielo" (in the sky) would. The chosen translation also has a whiff of the sound of "in excelsis" in a castellano-speaker's accent.

"The heights" would certainly be a more accurate English translation of the Latin but would sound just as strange as "the highest" without any reference to heaven. The heights of what? The highest what? However, the English "highest" is, I suspect, rather a translation of the Greek and as old as the Wyclif, Douai-Rheims & King James (Tyndale and Coverdale have "an hye", Geneva has "in the high heavens", and the Bishops' has "on hye").

[Calum Cille]

Sanctaidd, sanctaidd, sanctaidd,
Arglwydd Dduw’r lluoedd.
Mae nef a daear yn llawn o’th ogoniant.
Hosanna yn y goruchaf.
Bendigedig yw’r Hwn sy’n dyfod yn enw’r Arglwydd.
Hosanna yn y goruchaf.

"yr lloedd" (the hosts/forces)
"y goruchaf" (the highest)
Most Welsh adjectives are uninflected with respect to number.