Parish Liturgy Planning Groups

[presbyter]

Parish Liturgy Planning Groups: are they worth the effort? "God so loved the world that he didn't send a committee." What's your opinion? How might best liturgical practice in a parish be achieved?

[Benevenio]

"God so loved the world that he didn't send a committee."

Why did he have 12 Apostles then?

[presbyter]

Why did he have 12 Apostles then?

If our Lord had followed their 'committee decision' - This must not happen to you - we wouldn't have the Paschal Mystery to celebrate![/quote]

[Benevenio]

But you could argue that all the way down the line -
If Mary (and Joseph) had not agreed to collaborate, then we'd not have had the incarnation in the first place...
If Adam hadn't eaten the apple, we'd not have needed an incarnation...
[BTW, God was a pretty poor parent - you never tell your child not to do something (don't eat of that tree...) because that's the first thing they're going to go and do when you turn your back.]

Surely, God-becoming-man was not a decision that God could take by himself, but one that Mary (and Joseph) needed to make too? Of their own volition, like Adam. Isn't that the point of there being an incarnation, rather than God just clicking his fingers and changing things to how he wants them to be?

To return to your original question about acheiving best practice. God and humankind meet, in the Liturgy, and this meeting is one of mutual love. A true collaboration. Perhaps to acheive good liturgy, the Church needs to start by reflecting on what it means to be truly collaborative?

[presbyter]

Perhaps to acheive good liturgy, the Church needs to start by reflecting on what it means to be truly collaborative?

Jesus himself aside, don't you think you have given us the greatest example of collaborative ministry there has ever been in the person of Mary, his and our Mother?

How would you make sure that a Liturgy Committee is freely embracing God's will (with a joy akin to that which bubbles over in the Magnificat) and not their own agenda(s)?

[Benevenio]

I don't think you can ensure that a Liturgy Committee is freely embracing God's will and not peddling their own agenda (is the plural agendae? I suppose that depends on whether you think agenda comes from the gerundive of agere and so is the plural of agendum, or if you think it is a feminine singular noun in its own right. Latin scholars, or others with a classical education, please advise!)

To go back to Mary, though: the model is not neccessarily a good one for a committee. Here we see God having the idea and Mary doing the work. (It wasn't Mary who said 'It's about time you did something about this, Lord!') We see the will of one person (the Father, male) being carried out by another (an unmarried mother, female). Who plays God on the Liturgy Committee? The Priest, in the expectation that 'the Ladies of the parish' will carry out what he wants? I sincerely hope not!! Yet, there are many in the Church - both amongst those who are ordained and those who are not - who think that what 'Father says' is always right, and that unless 'Father says' then nothing should happen. Is this really the model of Church that the Vatican II documents lay out for us?

There will always be those of strong opinion, ready to hold forth; there will always be those of milder persuasions, less convinced of right and wrong and seeing all shades of grey and more than willing to sit and listen without directly contributing; those who are thinkers; those who are doers. The skill of the chair(man) of the Liturgy Committee is to get a balance. Unfortunately, it is not a skill often found, nor I suspect, one that is often actively taught, in seminaries or elsewhere.

If we act in love of our neighbour, seeking to serve them - and, as they assemble, to serve the body of Christ - then we will be starting from the right premise.

[presbyter]

not peddling their own agenda (is the plural agendae? I suppose that depends on whether you think agenda comes from the gerundive of agere and so is the plural of agendum, or if you think it is a feminine singular noun in its own right. Latin scholars, or others with a classical education, please advise!)

According to Fowler I have made an error and agenda is indeed the plural form of agendum. Perhaps I should lobby for a return to the use of agend as the singular in English.

Lots more to follow ...............................

[Tsume Tsuyu]

I don't like committees! In my view, committees equal arguments, people siding with one person or another, dominant characters imposing their will etc., etc... However, I dislike dictators even more. What concerns me is that, in parishes whether there is no liturgy planning group, what the priest says goes. How much follow up training do priests have once they are ordained? How in touch are they with changes, or suggested practices? I don't think they do received any supplemental training and, whilst they might receive literature about changes, how many of them completely disregard this so they can go on doing things the old way? How often are they checked up on? Time and time again, one hears horror stories about priests who impose very blinkered views on their parishioners. I'm not saying they are all like this, of course, but it happens. Even if you have a great priest who is well read and has a real understanding of what ought to be happening, there is sometimes the need for another perspective. There must be many parishioners who have an interest in liturgy and who would like to help encourage good liturgical practice. At least a liturgy group gives those people a forum to present their ideas and suggestions. And such a group allows there to be input from the old and the young, the learned and those eager to learn. The most important thing is to remember that the work is being done in love for God, and for the parishioners served by the group. And I agree that a good Chair will make a huge difference to the efficiency/success of any committee.

Whilst not perfect, I feel that the collaborative approach of a liturgy group is what parishes need to work towards 'getting it right'. I think there is always a danger that any Liturgy Committee might try to impose its own agenda, rather than freely embracing God's will but, surely, the same danger is there where one person is making all the decisions?

Tsume Tsuyu

[musicus]

Welcome to the forum, Tsume Tsuyu.

You make some good points, not least that there probably isn't an ideal solution. I suppose that priest and people working and deciding together might be good (depending on who the priest and the people are, though). Too often, planning the liturgy is reduced to just choosing the music, and, in the absence of an understanding of the principles of good liturgy, personal or collective opinions and preferences hold sway. Still worse, IMHO, is an unthinking recourse to "what we have always done".

There is a profound need for liturgical formation for priests AND for the laity, and that need is the SSG's principal raison d'etre.

M

[SOP]

This is a tough question.

In theory, yes we should include as many people as possible.

In practice, trying to find people who want to be on the committee to actually do some work is always difficult. Some want to be there in case they miss anything. Others because they want to be seen in meetings. It usually ends up the same person actually putting things together anyway!

[Martin Hall]

I might be able to give you an opinion on this topic when we've had our parish Liturgy Group meeting on Feb 10.
Regards to all and thanks for kind greeting from MUSICUS (who he/she?)
Martin

[musicus]

Regards to all and thanks for kind greeting from MUSICUS (who he/she?)
Martin

Why, Musicus, of course. That's who I am.

M

[Merseysider]

...in parishes whether there is no liturgy planning group, what the priest says goes.

I'd be really interested to hear from parishes which plan their music via committee as I can't see how it would work – I'm not saying it can't just that I can't understand it.

When I'm music planning I look forward eight to 12 weeks, consider what we have and where we'd like to be. I might introduce an item because, despite being new, it's useful for three or four concurrent weeks. I might spot a gap where we're not asking too much of the congregation so use the time to bring in a new Holy or Fraction Song. On top of that, I'll be planning backwards from larger occasions to get the music so firmly in the repertoire that, on the night, all I have to worry about is the extra brass and strings we use for those occasions. In the middle of all of this, I'm looking at what's being asked of the choir – too much, not enough etc Do they need a few harmonies or a small motet to keep them interested? Do they need something simpler so they can think about praying? And how do I take some of this into children's liturgy? How do I involve the school?

I would, BTW, happily take any of this to a liturgy planning meeting and be ready to argue my case – at the moment I take it all to occasional meetings with the PP who's a good cook and rustles up something special while we go through my endless bits of paper accompanied only by a bottle of wine – OK he has some rather wonderful whiskies too!

Although we don't have an official planning group, there are all sorts of other conversations and natters which go on – with the flower ladies, with the catechists etc. Somehow, we arrive at a finished product – for want of a better word – which appears to please everyone. And there's always the acid test – the comments from the rest of the assembly over a pint after Mass (our bar's in the same building, which saves travelling time!).

I'm not debating the rights and wrong of planning groups – just wondering how they work.

Was it Derek Worlock who said, not parish councils, but parishes in council? (Might be a slightly inaccurate quote there!)

I should also point out that all suggestions from our music group and from the assembly are taken into account and used wherever possible. The PP is happy as long as he gets My Song is Love Unknown and Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence a couple of times a year, my Psalm 83 and Chris Walker Celtic Liturgy every now and then.

[Hare]

A few years ago, our then PP allowed a Liturgy Committee to be set up "to get the choice of hymns away from the D of M" (me). He was happy with my choices, but a few people were not, so this was his way of evading responsibility.

Basically, a few people turned up with a note of their favourite hymns, and asked for my help when I asked which hymns were going where in the Mass, and didn't see why the hymns needed to reflect the theme - and asked what I was talking about when I enquired what settings of the Ordinary they wanted to be used on what occasions, and they never even mentioned psalms and gospel acclamations.

No one tells the church cleaners or flower arrangers - or even the PP - how to do their job; why does everyone think they are a musical or liturgical expert? and yes, i am qualified in both.

[Merseysider]

No one tells the church cleaners or flower arrangers - or even the PP

Well they do in our parish – the flower arrangers are currently a tad traumatised at learning that their contributions really do have an effect on the liturgy – luckily they're enjoying the trauma and learning from it. And as for the PP, well there's the bishop, of course.

I would welcome being told what to do as I am the most unqualified person in the world. All I have to draw on is 20+ years experience and that can be a major handicap – at some stage the blinkers click into place and it's hard to see the incense because of the thurible.