New texts - some practical points.

[quaeritor]

I thought of calling this thread "the issues that really matter" but realised that that would be a red rag to several theologically erudite bulls grazing here - but these (to me at least - I'm running a bit behind on this) are points that actually affect the way in which the words should be set - and they are all to do with commas

The first has already had some exercise in another thread: [How do I make a link to another thread?] is it "Holy, holy, holy, [breath] Lord God . . . " or "Holy, holy, holy Lord, [breath] God . . . "? or even "Holy, holy, [breath] holy Lord God . . ."? Does anyone know if the difference is anything more that the "Oxford comma" (albeit not exactly the standard context for that) subject to final proof reading according to some publishers "house rules", or did our translators go for the omission of the third comma by intent, or did they put it in only for it to be rejected by translators in Rome? - and rejected by intent or by oversight (or their house rules)?

My limited linguistics tell me the following:

1. The Latin does not say "O Holy Lord,..heaven and earth are full etc" because it is nominative and not vocative.

2. But the Latin itself is confused because it then switches to "heaven and earth are full of your glory (not "his glory") What preceded the Latin? and is the Latin "wrong"?

3. The Spanish has what seems to me the more obvious translation "Santo es el Señor" - but is that "old" text or "new" text? - Where are the non-English speakers in the new translation process - or is it only English that has one? - if it's the new form how do they get away with it? (Perhaps they don't kick and scream like us Brits - they just do it!)

4. All the settings in the Liber Usualis (well, ok, I didn't check absolutely all of them) except the one chosen for the new missal have "Holy, holy, holy [no comma, but end of line - pause for breath - fresh start] Lord God . . etc". Was the setting in the missal chosen specifically to correct a long-established error or just for its simplicity?

So, come all ye experts and tell me - is it "Holy holy holy [breath]..." or "holy holy holy Lord [breath] ..." or Holy, holy, [breath] holy Lord god . . ."?(all commas in the last sentence deliberately omitted).

Q

[presbyter]

I myself have found the article on the Sanctus in the current M & L helpful.

[Nick Baty]

I myself have found the article on the Sanctus in the current M & L helpful.

Most helpful indeed. However, M&L is only available to SSG members and one (usually) can't subscribe to it – I had to use a small amount of bribery and corruption to have mine sent regularly! The piece you mention is worthy of wider distribution.

[alan29]

Doesn't the B minor Mass have it "gloria eius?" Maybe, I've mis-remembered.

[John Ainslie]

I myself have found the article on the Sanctus in the current M & L helpful.

Most helpful indeed. However, M&L is only available to SSG members and one (usually) can't subscribe to it – I had to use a small amount of bribery and corruption to have mine sent regularly! The piece you mention is worthy of wider distribution.

It's really quite simple. To obtain the journal of the Society of Saint Gregory you pay a subscription to become a member - and you will be very welcome. Details from other links on the website you are already using.

[Nick Baty]

Yes, I do understand all that. I had the discussion with the very lovely Mary Rouse a couple of years ago. As I understand it, the SSG can't sell the magazine to non-members – something to do with the society's charitable status? I just think that's a pity as I'm sure there is much in it – for example, the item which Presbyter refers to above – which would be of interest to non-members. Anyway, this is OT – apologies, Mr Bear!

[Calum Cille]

At the risk of reducing by one the number of reasons that any forum members reading this thread might have for becoming a member of the Society of St Gregory if they aren't already, I post the following.

2. But the Latin itself is confused because it then switches to "heaven and earth are full of your glory (not "his glory") What preceded the Latin? and is the Latin "wrong"?

קָדוֹשׁ קָדוֹשׁ קָדוֹשׁ | יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת; מְלֹא כָל-הָאָרֶץ כְּבוֹדוֹ (Holy, holy, holy | [is the] Lord [of] tsəva'oth. Full [is] all the earth of his glory.)

The vocative is expressed in Hebrew using the definite article and a doubling of the initial consonant of the noun. This device is not used with the words אֲדֹנָי Adonai or אֱלהִים Elohim (the latter of which only appears in vocative usage in the psalms of Asaph) and it is not used in the above Hebrew sentences.

ἅγιος, ἅγιος, ἅγιος Κύριος σαβαώθ, πλήρης πᾶσα ἡ γῆ τῆς δόξης αὐτοῦ (Holy, holy, holy [is the] Lord [of?] sabaoth. Full [is] all the earth of his glory.)

The (Greek) Septuagint sometimes does not use the vocative case even where this is available (thus Θέε , the vocative form of Θεός (Theos - God), is only used twice in the Septuagint). However, this is rare with the word Κύριος. Therefore "Κύριε" (Kýrie - Lord) occurs in the Septuagint more often than "ο Κύριος" (ho Kýrios - lit. the Lord) as a vocative usage. The word ἅγιος (agios - holy) is also in the nominative form here, and therefore clearly not the vocative.

The latin switch to the vocative for only one part of the text is not wrong in that it is normal in liturgical texts to adapt from scripture rather than slavishly reproduce it. In the setting of the eucharistic prayer, it makes perfect sense to have the passage vocative to the Father (and not to the Son: 'blessed is he who comes'). The perhaps strange thing is that the word 'Dominus' is not also changed to the vocative form 'Domine'.

So, come all ye experts and tell me - is it "Holy holy holy [breath]..." or "holy holy holy Lord [breath] ..." or Holy, holy, [breath] holy Lord god . . ."?(all commas in the last sentence deliberately omitted).

יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת and Κύριος σαβαώθ are genitival constructions.

The insertion of the word Deus is without doubt inspired by the song of the four living beings in the Apocalypse.

ἅγιος ἅγιος ἅγιος Κύριος ὁ Θεὸς ὁ Παντοκράτωρ (holy, holy, holy [is the] Lord God, the Ruler of Everything)

In this situation, the words ὁ Θεὸς ὁ Παντοκράτωρ (ho Theos ho Pantokratwr - God, the Ruler of Everything) do not form part of a genitival construction but are epithets added onto the word Κύριος. We therefore have choices with regard to musical phrasing, choices which the traditional settings exhibit.

The new ICEL musical set of the sanctus indicates a certain choice being made in response to the perceived melodic phrasing of the traditional melody.

sanctus, sanctus, | sanctus Dominus Deus sabaoth
Holy, Holy, | Holy Lord God of hosts.

The new ICEL text would equally allow a phrasing representative of the scriptural tradition.

sanctus, sanctus, sanctus | Dominus Deus sabaoth
Holy, Holy, Holy | Lord God of hosts.

With regards to the new translation, the following phrasing might perhaps be considered as requiring a comma after 'Lord' and that has not been provided by ICEL. However, the melody of the mass XI sanctus, for example, is generally judged to follow this pattern.

sanctus, sanctus, sanctus Dominus | Deus sabaoth
Holy, Holy, Holy Lord | God of hosts.

You might also like to check a previous post I made on the forum.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1219&start=30

It is perhaps unfortunate that the English translation begins with a vocative, eg, "holy Lord, your glory fills the heavens". (Big big big head chef of cooks, kitchen and dining area are full of your gastronomy, bon appetit at the tables.) Unfortunate because anyone looking to the English for help in translation the sanctus into another language is going to be seriously misled as to the meaning of the Latin, as appears to have happened with the Gaelic liturgy.

[presbyter]

If you do not have a clue about what CC is saying..... and you feel like indulging in a nerd's approach to liturgy (what our transatlantic cousins call liturgics ) I thoroughly recommend -

Spinks B, The Sanctus in the Eucharistic Prayer, Cambridge University Press, 2002

[JW]

It's worth remembering that punctuation is a relatively new concept; there were no commas when the Sanctus was incorporated into the Mass, so interpretation of where the pauses should be was simply someone's opinion.

[Southern Comfort]

Just to lighten the atmosphere a little, you might be interested to know that if you were living in the diocese of Port Elizabeth, South Africa, you would still be able to use the acclamation "Christ has died..."

An informant has sent me the following link: http://www.catholic-pe.co.za/newmass.pdf where you can see that acclamation included along with the three new translations. I wonder how this sort of thing happens. And if there, why not elsewhere?

[presbyter]

An informant has sent me the following link: http://www.catholic-pe.co.za/newmass.pdf

A bit out of date, surely SC. The Sanctus has the earlier ICEL proposal of "is the Lord". I bet "Christ has died" is excluded now, don't you think?

[quaeritor]

Many thanks to Presbyter for pointing me towards the article in M & L which I ought to have spotted (hadn't unpacked it yet!) and also for identifying the book by B Spinks - in Googling that I mistakenly followed the link to this article http://tinyurl.com/wording-the-sanctus - which I found very interesting, and which has the advantage of being a) available to read in full and b) only 20 pages in contrast to the 250-odd of the Spinks - but is it authoritative? - perhaps Presbyter would like to comment.

Thanks also to Calum Cille for a typically erudite exposition - and for the link back to his earlier post which I also found hugely interesting and which preceded me on all my points. I accept the implied criticism that I should have read the earlier pages!

Between the two of them I guess that puts my Holy holy question to bed, (despite the fact that I conclude (perhaps I miss the point) that any of my options might be defended as correct - at least I know whichever I choose I may not be provably "right" but I won't be provably "wrong".) I shall be back shortly with my "Gloria" question - anyone who can pre-empt this by pointing me towards similar discussions already dealing with the Gloria may well save me the usual prolonged agony of preparing a post about it.

Q

[musicus]

Peter Jones' second article in the series is, in fact, on the Glory to God. It is scheduled to appear in the next issue of Music & Liturgy.

[Calum Cille]

I accept the implied criticism that I should have read the earlier pages!

Not at all. Have you counted them?

[presbyter]

- perhaps Presbyter would like to comment.

Lutheran feminism with a tendancy towards misandry?

Thus the Hebrew rendering of the mysterious first name of God has been reduced to a stereotypical title of a male authority figure...

YHWH...... spoken Adonai ......... from the Ugaritic root Adon meaning Lord or..........wait for it..........Father.

Our stereotypical title of a male authority figure who art in heaven.......?????

I think Ms Ramshaw should be read within her own Sitz im Leben. - which, of course, she is quite entitled to inhabit.