GIRM adjustment

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Peter
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Re: GIRM adjustment

Post by Peter »

alan29 wrote:i) ... Trent's views on music didn't put Viennese composers off.)
True, but in the 19th Century, especially in France, there was a reaction against them in favour of a simpler style, followed by a more general reaction in the 20th.
alan29 wrote:ii) I wouldn't want to generalise. It will depend on there being someone capable of teaching them. I am sure you wouldn't count singing the odd 2-note Amen as fulfilling our leaders' wishes. That surely would be little more than a peremptory nod in the direction of our heritage.
My present PP does intone the odd chant requiring a two-tone "Amen" and will presumably learn the mew Missal chants. He has said that initially we are to learn the new Collegeville Mass, which though not Gregorian is chant-based, but that other settings may be introduced later. His choice has caused a bit of muttering among those whose preference would be for something livelier.
alan29 wrote:iii) I don't exactly know what you mean, but I am as a rule suspicious of black/white, either/or statements. they often lead to (portray) the kind of polarisation that has caused much pain in the recent and not so recent past. However, for what its worth, by its very definition Liturgy is the people's work, ie something that belongs to them.
I agree, both in terms of suspicion of black/white statements and in recognising the need for the people to feel ownership of the liturgy.

Back in the 1960s, when the revised Mass (with widespread use of the vernacular) was introduced, the Tridentine Mass was at the same time banned - presumably because otherwise many parishes would have conservatively stuck with the old form they were familiar and comfortable with. My memories pre-reform were of school Masses sung to Missa de Angelis or Orbis Factor or (being really trendy!) Gregory Murray. They were sung wthout much enthusiasm but accepted as a fact of life - that's all there was it seemed. I never heard any of this at Sunday Mass in my own parish, as of the four or five Masses each Sunday only one was sung (just as Nick says) and we never went to that one: instead I remember spoken Latin responses. Where I did come across chant in my own parish it was in the seemingly interminable Good Friday Solemn Liturgy.

Then the reform came: Mass continued to be spoken but the responses were in English. Hymns, initially a token one at the end of Mass but later more of a hymn sandwich, were introduced later. It was at student Masses where I found the widespread use of hymns (especially folk hymns) encouraged, though I don't remember many ordinaries sung then. In time, settings of the ordinaries did appear, many of them in paraphrased settings to make them more singable, in various styles and with various degrees of success.

The principal difference between today's reforms and those of 40+ years ago is that the genie is out of the bottle and in place of a few plainchant settings accepted as a fact of life there is a much greater variety of styles out there, with the Clapping Gloria and Israeli Sanctus still embraced with enthusiasm by some while being derided as trivial and unworthy by others. Settings like these are "owned" by the congregation in a way plainchant wasn't. The challenge facing us now is to enable Mass to continue to belong to the people while remaining true to the improved standards the Church is calling for.

Just as in the '60s, the currently used texts are being banned to stop people conservatively hanging on to what they know rather than face the perceived terrors of the unknown. The complication now is that at the same time there are two alternative permitted texts, perceived as belonging to fringe movements: the rehabilitated Tridentine rite and the Anglican one used by the Ordinariate. This gives a rather mixed message and weakens the exhortation to unite behind the new texts.
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Calum Cille
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Re: GIRM adjustment

Post by Calum Cille »

Peter wrote:They were sung wthout much enthusiasm but accepted as a fact of life - that's all there was it seemed.

... in place of a few plainchant settings accepted as a fact of life there is a much greater variety of styles out there, with the Clapping Gloria and Israeli Sanctus still embraced with enthusiasm by some while being derided as trivial and unworthy by others.

I have to suppress a giggle. The status quo at various English masses in Scotland is the St Anne mass plus Gloria and that's more or less it. So much for a much greater variety of styles since the early 20th century. As Nick says, we still have a long way to go. It would be an enormous help if whoever it is that thinks that congregations can only handle a couple of mass ordinaries (or should only have to handle a couple of mass ordinaries), were brought to agree that evidence for this assertion is lacking and that many of the very congregations in mind would be very willing to try something else for a change and that it would be good for them to do so.
alan29
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Re: GIRM adjustment

Post by alan29 »

Memorising comes more easily to communities with strong oral traditions and "developing" levels of literacy. We no longer have either of those - no matter what the Daily Mail alleges by way of literacy. And as our congregations get increasingly aged, relying on memory become more of a challenge - as I can personally testify. :oops:
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Calum Cille
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Re: GIRM adjustment

Post by Calum Cille »

alan29 wrote:Memorising comes more easily to communities with strong oral traditions and "developing" levels of literacy. We no longer have either of those - no matter what the Daily Mail alleges by way of literacy. And as our congregations get increasingly aged, relying on memory become more of a challenge - as I can personally testify. :oops:

That's all very well but all you're effectively saying is that the ability to memorise comes more easily with practice, and since people have to practice it in oral traditions, they're good at it. No suprises there. :|

These sound like excuses rather than realistic appraisal, Alan. :wink: Many parish choirs are packed with people who either can't read music at all or are at "developing" levels of musical literacy, exactly the people who rely on musical memory rather than musical text for singing in their parish each week, and exactly the people you say the skill should come more easily to. :? The people in my Gregorian chant group all come from literate societies and one of them is fairly elderly. :arrow: Introit and communion antiphons are certainly not hard for them to memorise, partly because they're quite memorable in the first place. :) Not one Scottish or Irish traditional singer, that I know personally, is illiterate and yet most of us have sumptuous repertoires of songs memorised. 8)

It's no surprise to me that you show resistance to the thought of memorising as a regular practice as this has long been the attitude to memorising in modern culture. :x I see it as a form of mental laziness that protests because it wants instant satisfaction for minimum expenditure, wanting to rely on viewing half an A5 page of music for recall of a monophonic song :!: :shock: If we are to provide real Gregorian chant propers in the liturgy, choirs cannot be enslaved to excuses for mental laziness. :evil: The idea that it's a bit too much for older people to learn a Gregorian Sanctus sounds so ageist! :o Especially with all these CDs around the house these days. :idea: Why do local councils bother running adult learning classes all year and offering OAP discounts on the courses if the old dears never remember anything they learn :?:
NorthernTenor
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Re: GIRM adjustment

Post by NorthernTenor »

Actually, CC, some of us find it easier to read GR Propers than memorise them. They can be complex things, and it's not unreasonable to suggest that those of us with other things to do don't have the time or inclination to memorise them.
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alan29
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Re: GIRM adjustment

Post by alan29 »

Presumably your chant group uses printed copies of some sort - useful as an aide-memoir, no?
Gosh, as one of advancing years, it feels strange to be accused of ageism.
Does your group sing the gregorian propers each week? Could they from memory? Learning a 3 note sanctus to be sung regularly is one thing ...........
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Calum Cille
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Re: GIRM adjustment

Post by Calum Cille »

NorthernTenor wrote:Actually, CC, some of us find it easier to read GR Propers than memorise them. They can be complex things, and it's not unreasonable to suggest that those of us with other things to do don't have the time or inclination to memorise them.

alan29 wrote:Presumably your chant group uses printed copies of some sort - useful as an aide-memoir, no?
Gosh, as one of advancing years, it feels strange to be accused of ageism.
Does your group sing the gregorian propers each week? Could they from memory? Learning a 3 note sanctus to be sung regularly is one thing ...........

OK, folks, carry on as you're doing and see where it gets you with the musically illiterate and the less musically literate in terms of real Gregorian mass propers.

http://www.youtube.com/user/GeorgiosMIC ... QrkbNKh6Cw
nazard
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Re: GIRM adjustment

Post by nazard »

Quite the worst orthodox (presumably) chanting I have ever heard. I didn't listen to much of it - it was just too awful.

I don't see the relevance to singing from memory or by sight reading. Their problems I felt were:

(1) They were all singing far too loudly, overdriving their voices.

(2) Several of them, with very loud voices, had no sense of pitch.

(3) Someone was leading and others were following at varying delays.

(4) At times there is a deep bass groaning irrelevant other notes.

(5) Some singers were coming in and out at random, presumably singing the bits they could remember.

(6) Some singers were sliding between notes.

(7) The celebrant, or cantor, whatever he was called, the soloist, used intervals which are not part of the european classical tonality. That could be deliberate, I don't know.

The cure: a good teacher, a willingness to learn and and indefinite sabbatical until they get it right.
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Calum Cille
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Re: GIRM adjustment

Post by Calum Cille »

nazard wrote:The cure: a good teacher, a willingness to learn and and indefinite sabbatical until they get it right.

Hear, hear. A good dose of western music theory will solve all their liturgical singing problems for sure.
nazard
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Re: GIRM adjustment

Post by nazard »

Would a good teacher teach them western music theory in this context?
alan29
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Re: GIRM adjustment

Post by alan29 »

I fail to see the relevance of that clip, unless to induce schadenfreude.
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Calum Cille
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Re: GIRM adjustment

Post by Calum Cille »

nazard wrote:Would a good teacher teach them western music theory in this context?

Quite. It would be beneath one, wouldn't it?
alan29 wrote:I fail to see the relevance of that clip, unless to induce schadenfreude.

Yes, those poor Greeks. And the guy who posted the clip is a real psaltikí aficionado too; what does that say for the culture?
nazard
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Re: GIRM adjustment

Post by nazard »

Drop in here if you get the chance: to my judgement, although possibly not to those up in these things, the chant is spot on.

Zagreb Orthodox Cathedral
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Calum Cille
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Re: GIRM adjustment

Post by Calum Cille »

nazard wrote:Drop in here if you get the chance: to my judgement, although possibly not to those up in these things, the chant is spot on.

Zagreb Orthodox Cathedral

I'm not sure even that could compare with the following.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vG8ltvVH1ns
alan29
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Re: GIRM adjustment

Post by alan29 »

I post this without comment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1WyoXml ... re=related
Ah ...... nostalgia.
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