PANEL decisions

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nazard
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Re: PANEL decisions

Post by nazard »

presbyter wrote:
nazard wrote:I suggest that the church needs to stop messing about with the composers, and buy the copyrights to some good mass settings outright, and make those freely available, perhaps on a web site.


If you held the purse-strings, how much would you offer, nazard? :wink:


At the moment fees for composers get fixed by some opaque mechanism between the composers and the publishers. My guess is that the not so well known composers send a copy of their products to publishers with a "What will you pay for this note" and accept what is offered, while the top ones get to negotiate a decent deal with publishers. The Bishops would have to enter this game.

Nick Baty wrote:And how would you define "good"?


You wouldn't like my definition of good. I have marked up my music collection in light pencil marks (I change my opinions easily and often) from five "fimi" to five "stellae", according to a set of criteria which are a mystery to me. In this case it is the Bishops or their committee which has to decide. This thread has reported them rejecting material on the grounds of lack of guitar chords, excessive repetition and insufficient thematic cohesion. They seem to have fixed their criteria already.

My point is that this is just another case of trying to manage without providing any resources. That is a sure way of upsetting your subordinates.

While we are on the subject of musical quality, my nieces and nephews assure me that someone who writes rotten music is called a "decomposer".
nazard
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Re: PANEL decisions

Post by nazard »

presbyter wrote:
Andrew Moore
Andrew Moore studied at the Royal Academy of Music and at Cambridge University.

Having been a parish priest of St Francis, Ascot we are pleased to say that Andrew now works with us at Kevin Mayhew as our Managing Editor.


He is one of Mayhew's better house composers for the organ. I have heard that he plays well and so can perform two badly needed functions:

(1) To get page turns at practical points in the music.

(2) To play through everything at least once as part of the proof reading.
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Nick Baty
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Re: PANEL decisions

Post by Nick Baty »

nazard wrote:This thread has reported them rejecting material on the grounds of lack of guitar chords...
I don't think it has. Think it was someone being asked – as an "Observation" – to add guitar chords.
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presbyter
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Re: PANEL decisions

Post by presbyter »

nazard wrote:Having been a parish priest of St Francis, Ascot we are pleased to say that Andrew now works with us at Kevin Mayhew as our Managing Editor.....


Oh yes, Andrew is an accomplished musician. I have met him - some years ago now. But he was Andrew Moore OSB (Downside) and then became a p.p. The Mayhew indication of employment suggests he's left active ministry.
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presbyter
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Re: PANEL decisions

Post by presbyter »

Nick Baty wrote:
nazard wrote:This thread has reported them rejecting material on the grounds of lack of guitar chords...
I don't think it has. Think it was someone being asked – as an "Observation" – to add guitar chords.


Indeed. And having taken advice from two guitarists, the chords have been added by the composer...... open and (for an interesting texture) at Capo 7.
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presbyter
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Re: PANEL decisions

Post by presbyter »

By the way....

James MacMillan's re-write of the St Anne's Mass is about to be - or has been already - submitted to the Panel/ICEL procedure. James has added a Gloria.
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Nick Baty
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Re: PANEL decisions

Post by Nick Baty »

presbyter wrote:And having taken advice from two guitarists, the chords have been added by the composer...

Ah! I was thinking of a different composer who has definitely not added the chords!
NorthernTenor
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Re: PANEL decisions

Post by NorthernTenor »

It's not the Bishops' business to get involved in music rights and publication. They meddle in far too much detail as it is, and with unfortunate consequences; don't give them ideas!

Looking at this another way, though, I’d be surprised if any but a few composers make much money out of publishing mass-text settings, once publishers’ and retailers’ costs and profits are taken into account; and frankly, you might prefer not to be associated with some kinds of stuff that does sell in large quantities. Given the disadvantages of selling your soul to The Man (or control of your work, at least), I would have thought it far better these days to publish under a commons licence, with delivery by download from a website. The other advantage of this is that the composer will retain copyright and full control of any commercial usage.
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NorthernTenor
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Re: PANEL decisions

Post by NorthernTenor »

... do sell ... :!:
Ian Williams
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presbyter
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Re: PANEL decisions

Post by presbyter »

This is a non-panel decision - illustrating what has happened in a part of Scotland. The publisher is in Scotland, so no need to submit to the England and Wales panel. The publisher is Rose-Conlon Music: http://www.RoseConlonMusic.co.uk

I refer to the Cille Choirill Mass by Peter Rose.

Apparently, one of the Bishops of Scotland - just one - has given his permission for this setting to go to print. However, it is obvious from the score that the setting can hardly have been submitted to ICEL in Washington for their approval. Why? There is no proper ICEl copyright acknowledgement (just simply - New English Translation © ICEL)

Furthermore, I suggest that ICEL would not approve this treatment of the text of the Sanctus - I reproduce the text, capitalisation, punctuation in full.....

Hosanna, Hosanna, Hosanna in the highest,
Hosanna, Hosanna, Hosanna in the highest!
Holy, holy, holy Lord, Lord, God of hosts.
Heav'n and earth are full of your glory,
Hosanna in the highest!
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord,
Hosanna, Hosanna, Hosanna in the highest,
Hosanna, Hosanna, Hosanna in the highest!

Good point about this setting - it's a good tune and would certainly sing well. As a composition, it's well-crafted.

Bad point about this setting - I have to wonder what is happening here. For those of us who have painfully been coming to terms with the Guide for Composers, the panel process and the further submission of compositions to ICEL in Washington for their approval - this is a real kick in the teeth. Why bother following all our own Bishops' directives when one Bishop in Scotland acts in this seemingly maverick manner?
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Calum Cille
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Re: PANEL decisions

Post by Calum Cille »

presbyter wrote:... this is a real kick in the teeth. Why bother following all our own Bishops' directives when one Bishop in Scotland acts in this seemingly maverick manner?

Freedom! :lol:
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Nick Baty
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Re: PANEL decisions

Post by Nick Baty »

presbyter wrote:...further submission of compositions to ICEL in Washington for their approval

This is not my experience. ICEL was happy to give permission as long as they had the certificate from THE Panel. They simply asked for one voucher copy on publication.
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presbyter
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Re: PANEL decisions

Post by presbyter »

Calum Cille wrote:Freedom! :lol:


Freedom indeed! And freedom to market, distribute, sell and use liturgically in England and Wales. Our Liturgy Office couldn't control/stop that. What's ICEL going to do? Litigation against the publisher for breach of copyright? Publisher's defence - a Bishop said we could do this. Hmmmm.
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Calum Cille
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Re: PANEL decisions

Post by Calum Cille »

presbyter wrote:
Calum Cille wrote:Freedom! :lol:

Freedom indeed! And freedom to market, distribute, sell and use liturgically in England and Wales. Our Liturgy Office couldn't control/stop that. What's ICEL going to do? Litigation against the publisher for breach of copyright? Publisher's defence - a Bishop said we could do this. Hmmmm.

One Scottish bishop and it's all starting to fall apart already? Tsk, tsk! :lol:
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presbyter
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Re: PANEL decisions

Post by presbyter »

Nick Baty wrote:
presbyter wrote:...further submission of compositions to ICEL in Washington for their approval

This is not my experience. ICEL was happy to give permission as long as they had the certificate from THE Panel. They simply asked for one voucher copy on publication.


On publication? Not my experience. ICEL have done a further "use of text" review on the hard copy of compositions I sent them. Four tiny punctuation errors that both the panel and I missed in 224 pages. ICEL are very pleasant to deal with and very efficient, especially so given their workload (not just music but Missals and Missalette proofs coming to them from all over the world). I congratulate Dr McFarland and his (small?) team.

Mind you, CTS have managed to publish both their Simple Prayer Book and similar size basic Missal with a small paragraph of the Roman Canon missing. Ha! Methinks they could not have put a proof beneath the gaze of Dr McFarland ;)
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